Need help with track brakes
07-14-2009, 10:10 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: webster, ny
Posts: 349
Need help with track brakes
Just back from Watkins Glen road course DE.Had some serious brake issues .
Towards the end of the 30 minute runs experiencing serious brake fade.
Top speed 120 + mph.
The stock fluid was just replaced with Motul 600 & I changed pads to Hawk HPS front & rear.
Need to stay with a streetable pad.
Suggestions ---?? Bigger front rotors ??? Wheels are Steeda 18" ultralites with Nitto NT 05
Correction the current pads are Hawk hp + ,NOT HPS.. sorry
Towards the end of the 30 minute runs experiencing serious brake fade.
Top speed 120 + mph.
The stock fluid was just replaced with Motul 600 & I changed pads to Hawk HPS front & rear.
Need to stay with a streetable pad.
Suggestions ---?? Bigger front rotors ??? Wheels are Steeda 18" ultralites with Nitto NT 05
Correction the current pads are Hawk hp + ,NOT HPS.. sorry
Last edited by 14901490; 07-15-2009 at 09:49 AM. Reason: correction
07-15-2009, 07:36 AM
#3
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
A high end street pad like the HPS is not going to stop a 3600 lb car from 120 with any kind of confidence. Bigger rotors or even different calipers are not going to change this fact. You must get a better pad. Still streetable? I had no problems performance wise driving the HT-10 on the street but they squeal and dust. The Carbotech XP10 is very streetable - fairly quiet but bad dust. Track pads are dusty and loud - if you want to go fast on the track and still drive on the street this is the price you pay. Why not swap pads at the track? It takes about 15-20 minutes.
07-15-2009, 08:40 AM
#6
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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The other thing to consider is front brake cooling. I run the Quantum kit and others run different kits. They really help.
I also read somewhere that making sure your pads are worn to no more than 1/2 thickness helps as the pad material helps "insulate" the fluid from the heat.
I also read somewhere that making sure your pads are worn to no more than 1/2 thickness helps as the pad material helps "insulate" the fluid from the heat.
Last edited by Sleeper_08; 07-15-2009 at 08:42 AM.
07-15-2009, 08:56 AM
#7
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A high end street pad like the HPS is not going to stop a 3600 lb car from 120 with any kind of confidence. Bigger rotors or even different calipers are not going to change this fact. You must get a better pad. Still streetable? I had no problems performance wise driving the HT-10 on the street but they squeal and dust. The Carbotech XP10 is very streetable - fairly quiet but bad dust. Track pads are dusty and loud - if you want to go fast on the track and still drive on the street this is the price you pay. Why not swap pads at the track? It takes about 15-20 minutes.
07-15-2009, 02:11 PM
#8
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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the second part to my question is - after the initial brake fade problem we bled the brakes to make sure no air was in the lines- kept getting 2-3 small bubbles from passenger front side only -
. & could not get the pedal to stay hard -pedal actually going to the floor.
tried to take it back on track but pedal went to floor again in pit row.
So car is at my ford dealer now & he says the brakes seem good to him . HELP!!
. & could not get the pedal to stay hard -pedal actually going to the floor.
tried to take it back on track but pedal went to floor again in pit row.
So car is at my ford dealer now & he says the brakes seem good to him . HELP!!
07-15-2009, 03:15 PM
#9
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Location: Harrisburg PA
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I've found Carbotechs are sensitive to the build up of pad material on the rotors and don't play well with other compounds. In fact, the Carbotech literature says you need to resurface your old rotors before using the pads for the first time. But, a few good hard stops cure that. As long as you bed them in properly, you should have no problems switching.
I wouldn't worry about 2 or 3 small bubbles. The stock brakes do have a soft pedal and a long stroke. Are you sure its "going to the floor"? FWIW - I have never liked the pedal feel of the stock system. But with true track pads, ducts, lines and fluid - I never had fade, i.e. the car always stopped for me.
Lets be clear here - you have brakes that work. They stop the car. At most speeds they can lock up and activate the ABS...correct? So, in other words, at most speeds the brakes work fine...correct?
But - when you are stopping from triple digits its taking longer to stop than you think it should. The brakes slow you down, just not enough. Is this correct?
Do you smell the brakes? A pungent, distinctive smell. When you come in the paddock are the brakes smoking? Both would be indicators that you have the wrong pads in.
You have hi-temp fluid and you only see a couple bubbles in one caliper - thus its unlikely you are boiling the fluid (which would really give you a soft, mushy, to the floor brake pedal and lots of air in the lines). Your dealer says the brakes are working. If, under normal braking, everything seems to be fine then its unlikely a system malfunction. As stated before - my first thought is you need track pads and brake ducts - OR - alter your driving style, slow down and brake sooner.
Colin - I was thinking fronts only (15-20 min). I leave the track pads in all the time now so I forget these things. Doing the backs would be an additional time and thus, doing it at the track before an event is probably not a good idea. However, doing it at home the night before works pretty well.
I wouldn't worry about 2 or 3 small bubbles. The stock brakes do have a soft pedal and a long stroke. Are you sure its "going to the floor"? FWIW - I have never liked the pedal feel of the stock system. But with true track pads, ducts, lines and fluid - I never had fade, i.e. the car always stopped for me.
Lets be clear here - you have brakes that work. They stop the car. At most speeds they can lock up and activate the ABS...correct? So, in other words, at most speeds the brakes work fine...correct?
But - when you are stopping from triple digits its taking longer to stop than you think it should. The brakes slow you down, just not enough. Is this correct?
Do you smell the brakes? A pungent, distinctive smell. When you come in the paddock are the brakes smoking? Both would be indicators that you have the wrong pads in.
You have hi-temp fluid and you only see a couple bubbles in one caliper - thus its unlikely you are boiling the fluid (which would really give you a soft, mushy, to the floor brake pedal and lots of air in the lines). Your dealer says the brakes are working. If, under normal braking, everything seems to be fine then its unlikely a system malfunction. As stated before - my first thought is you need track pads and brake ducts - OR - alter your driving style, slow down and brake sooner.
Colin - I was thinking fronts only (15-20 min). I leave the track pads in all the time now so I forget these things. Doing the backs would be an additional time and thus, doing it at the track before an event is probably not a good idea. However, doing it at home the night before works pretty well.
07-15-2009, 03:57 PM
#10
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: webster, ny
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i came in off the track because to me it felt like more than brake fade. the after the bleed i could not get the pedal to stay up so i didnt take it back on track - LITERALLY was going to the floor. i could pump them up with engine off - but as soon as i started engine it lost all pressure & went to floor.i have to pump them to get brakes. Could master cylinder have an internal seal prob/
Is there a racing master cyl upgrade ?
THX!
Is there a racing master cyl upgrade ?
THX!