Want a Strut tower brace, but have Camber Plates????
10-11-2009, 08:22 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: VA/NC Line
Posts: 405
The flashy little *Cold Air Induction* logo on the airbox of the '10 isn't necessary either. I'd bet it's more marketing by FoMoCo. It, as well as the strut tower brace, track pack option, etc. - is all marketing. They needed to add fluff to detract potential Camaro buyers with it's release this year.
Why do people care so much whether they are used or not.
I could see if someone was flaming someone for putting Camaro wheels on a mustang, or dropping an SR20DET ricer engine in a fox body, but is it really that big of a deal if I spend a few dollars and put a brace on my car that may or may not make it a little stronger? Who gives a damn.
It's my money and it's not going to hurt the car. It may not help, but it can't hurt it. Unless you count the nanometer of effect the extremely little extra weight would effect. Which is so minimal there is no way on a DD with stock shocks you'd be able to tell the difference. Remember, I didn't want the brace for handling in the first place.
So, Flame away.
What happened to Legion?
10-12-2009, 08:39 AM
#22
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
A few thoughts on STBs
There are some "right" reasons for adding them, and a couple of "wrong" ones. I have no problem with people adding these parts, provided that they are adding them for the right reasons.
NVH reduction is one of the good ones, and the added mass is likely the small part of the story (because in the typical STB there isn't really enough mass to accomplish much - IIRC, OE mass dampers are more in the 25 lb and up range). That the STB adds some local stiffening will chase some vibrations off to a frequency where they are less bothersome.
Crash damage repair is at least potentially another good one. There's a reasonably current thread that involved a salvage-title Mustang and STBs/lower tie bars. Let's just say that bent and repaired sheet metal structure probably isn't going to be quite as rigid as it was originally and if anything would benefit (relatively) a little more from additional structure than an undamaged car would. The NVH reasons are just as valid here, too.
"Wrong" reasons are those that imply improvements that the STB in question either cannot make, cannot make to the extent implied, or involve implied comparisons that are based on a completely different chassis.
RE: Legion's promotion of me to "automotive engineer":
It's flattering, but I should set the record straight here - I am a structural engineer by education and at least more or less by profession, just not within the automotive industry. So I can't really claim to be an automotive engineer, even though I've had the opportunity to comment on a couple of pre-production aftermarket products and occasionally run a few numbers to help someone out.
Whatever automotive knowledge I have comes from independent study, some dirty hands, and the application of general structural and mechanical engineering principles on a case basis.
Norm
There are some "right" reasons for adding them, and a couple of "wrong" ones. I have no problem with people adding these parts, provided that they are adding them for the right reasons.
NVH reduction is one of the good ones, and the added mass is likely the small part of the story (because in the typical STB there isn't really enough mass to accomplish much - IIRC, OE mass dampers are more in the 25 lb and up range). That the STB adds some local stiffening will chase some vibrations off to a frequency where they are less bothersome.
Crash damage repair is at least potentially another good one. There's a reasonably current thread that involved a salvage-title Mustang and STBs/lower tie bars. Let's just say that bent and repaired sheet metal structure probably isn't going to be quite as rigid as it was originally and if anything would benefit (relatively) a little more from additional structure than an undamaged car would. The NVH reasons are just as valid here, too.
"Wrong" reasons are those that imply improvements that the STB in question either cannot make, cannot make to the extent implied, or involve implied comparisons that are based on a completely different chassis.
RE: Legion's promotion of me to "automotive engineer":
It's flattering, but I should set the record straight here - I am a structural engineer by education and at least more or less by profession, just not within the automotive industry. So I can't really claim to be an automotive engineer, even though I've had the opportunity to comment on a couple of pre-production aftermarket products and occasionally run a few numbers to help someone out.
Whatever automotive knowledge I have comes from independent study, some dirty hands, and the application of general structural and mechanical engineering principles on a case basis.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 10-12-2009 at 08:43 AM.
10-12-2009, 09:37 AM
#24
Those who say in an accident the strut towers don't move much.... I can say my 06 GT was ramped by its former owner, General Lee style in a drunk driving post divorce stupid moment, and it shoved the alignment at the strut tower out by almost 2 inches, give or take a little. Yet it wasn't hit hard enough to deploy the airbags (that really leaves me curious if since it was a flight and sudden smack down issue, rather than a dead on hit that caused the bags to not pop) or damage the hood or fenders.
IN MY CASE - It has been recommended we install a STB and an A arm support by people that know - in fact my alignment guy is a strip racer. I'm probably going to get called out on this one and made to regret my flippant statement, but to me, unless you're going to the strip or a serious street racer, who cares about adding a little extra weight? If you're happy with YOUR car with your personal choices, and it makes it your own car, not someone elses' dream, don't worry about it. If you've got the money to spend on bolt ons that may or may not help, but YOU LOVE IT, who cares? And if extra weight becomes an issue - just quit hauling around a few of your friends. Or your kids. ;-) That's what I did. j/k
"Crash damage repair is at least potentially another good one. There's a reasonably current thread that involved a salvage-title Mustang and STBs/lower tie bars. Let's just say that bent and repaired sheet metal structure probably isn't going to be quite as rigid as it was originally and if anything would benefit (relatively) a little more from additional structure than an undamaged car would. The NVH reasons are just as valid here, too."
That would be my car. LOL Here's the thread referenced:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/s197...questions.html
EDIT: By General Lee style, btw, that's really an exaggeration. Looks like he lost control on a dirt road - think Lightning McQueen from Cars trying to learn to dirt race (Exhibit A: Gravel chips alllll over the driver's side scallop behind the door) zoomed off said dirt road, jumped a bar ditch and nose-dove it into the dirt (Exhibit B: Center front and undercarriage damage punctuated by a thick pile of Oklahoma red-dirt caked in the pulleys and every conceivable surface and gravel lodged in the windshield wiper wells) Did I mention I found amber beer bottle glass lodged in weird places last weekend? Sheesh.
IN MY CASE - It has been recommended we install a STB and an A arm support by people that know - in fact my alignment guy is a strip racer. I'm probably going to get called out on this one and made to regret my flippant statement, but to me, unless you're going to the strip or a serious street racer, who cares about adding a little extra weight? If you're happy with YOUR car with your personal choices, and it makes it your own car, not someone elses' dream, don't worry about it. If you've got the money to spend on bolt ons that may or may not help, but YOU LOVE IT, who cares? And if extra weight becomes an issue - just quit hauling around a few of your friends. Or your kids. ;-) That's what I did. j/k
"Crash damage repair is at least potentially another good one. There's a reasonably current thread that involved a salvage-title Mustang and STBs/lower tie bars. Let's just say that bent and repaired sheet metal structure probably isn't going to be quite as rigid as it was originally and if anything would benefit (relatively) a little more from additional structure than an undamaged car would. The NVH reasons are just as valid here, too."
That would be my car. LOL Here's the thread referenced:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/s197...questions.html
EDIT: By General Lee style, btw, that's really an exaggeration. Looks like he lost control on a dirt road - think Lightning McQueen from Cars trying to learn to dirt race (Exhibit A: Gravel chips alllll over the driver's side scallop behind the door) zoomed off said dirt road, jumped a bar ditch and nose-dove it into the dirt (Exhibit B: Center front and undercarriage damage punctuated by a thick pile of Oklahoma red-dirt caked in the pulleys and every conceivable surface and gravel lodged in the windshield wiper wells) Did I mention I found amber beer bottle glass lodged in weird places last weekend? Sheesh.
Last edited by Batenswytch; 10-12-2009 at 12:29 PM.
10-12-2009, 05:34 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: VA/NC Line
Posts: 405
Those who say in an accident the strut towers don't move much.... I can say my 06 GT was ramped by its former owner, General Lee style in a drunk driving post divorce stupid moment, and it shoved the alignment at the strut tower out by almost 2 inches, give or take a little. Yet it wasn't hit hard enough to deploy the airbags (that really leaves me curious if since it was a flight and sudden smack down issue, rather than a dead on hit that caused the bags to not pop) or damage the hood or fenders.
IN MY CASE - It has been recommended we install a STB and an A arm support by people that know - in fact my alignment guy is a strip racer. I'm probably going to get called out on this one and made to regret my flippant statement, but to me, unless you're going to the strip or a serious street racer, who cares about adding a little extra weight? If you're happy with YOUR car with your personal choices, and it makes it your own car, not someone elses' dream, don't worry about it. If you've got the money to spend on bolt ons that may or may not help, but YOU LOVE IT, who cares? And if extra weight becomes an issue - just quit hauling around a few of your friends. Or your kids. ;-) That's what I did. j/k
"Crash damage repair is at least potentially another good one. There's a reasonably current thread that involved a salvage-title Mustang and STBs/lower tie bars. Let's just say that bent and repaired sheet metal structure probably isn't going to be quite as rigid as it was originally and if anything would benefit (relatively) a little more from additional structure than an undamaged car would. The NVH reasons are just as valid here, too."
That would be my car. LOL Here's the thread referenced:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/s197...questions.html
EDIT: By General Lee style, btw, that's really an exaggeration. Looks like he lost control on a dirt road - think Lightning McQueen from Cars trying to learn to dirt race (Exhibit A: Gravel chips alllll over the driver's side scallop behind the door) zoomed off said dirt road, jumped a bar ditch and nose-dove it into the dirt (Exhibit B: Center front and undercarriage damage punctuated by a thick pile of Oklahoma red-dirt caked in the pulleys and every conceivable surface and gravel lodged in the windshield wiper wells) Did I mention I found amber beer bottle glass lodged in weird places last weekend? Sheesh.
IN MY CASE - It has been recommended we install a STB and an A arm support by people that know - in fact my alignment guy is a strip racer. I'm probably going to get called out on this one and made to regret my flippant statement, but to me, unless you're going to the strip or a serious street racer, who cares about adding a little extra weight? If you're happy with YOUR car with your personal choices, and it makes it your own car, not someone elses' dream, don't worry about it. If you've got the money to spend on bolt ons that may or may not help, but YOU LOVE IT, who cares? And if extra weight becomes an issue - just quit hauling around a few of your friends. Or your kids. ;-) That's what I did. j/k
"Crash damage repair is at least potentially another good one. There's a reasonably current thread that involved a salvage-title Mustang and STBs/lower tie bars. Let's just say that bent and repaired sheet metal structure probably isn't going to be quite as rigid as it was originally and if anything would benefit (relatively) a little more from additional structure than an undamaged car would. The NVH reasons are just as valid here, too."
That would be my car. LOL Here's the thread referenced:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/s197...questions.html
EDIT: By General Lee style, btw, that's really an exaggeration. Looks like he lost control on a dirt road - think Lightning McQueen from Cars trying to learn to dirt race (Exhibit A: Gravel chips alllll over the driver's side scallop behind the door) zoomed off said dirt road, jumped a bar ditch and nose-dove it into the dirt (Exhibit B: Center front and undercarriage damage punctuated by a thick pile of Oklahoma red-dirt caked in the pulleys and every conceivable surface and gravel lodged in the windshield wiper wells) Did I mention I found amber beer bottle glass lodged in weird places last weekend? Sheesh.
10-13-2009, 10:36 AM
#27
Sorry for the lengthy post btw. I'm working to not ramble on so much. ;-) You can tell I'm a woman though - I use 250 words to tell a story that a man could tell in 40. LOL
The bottom line - I say frack the hardcore opinions on weight unless you're a serious racer. Make your car your own.
The bottom line - I say frack the hardcore opinions on weight unless you're a serious racer. Make your car your own.
10-13-2009, 08:26 PM
#28
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Wash. DC Posts: 13,541
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Actually I've heard that I'm an F1 intern, an Indycar tire engineer, an Indycar intern and many more. I'm an electronics/data logging/information systems person and I'm doing an apprenticeship with the crew chief to learn how to manage every aspect of a professional racing team, this is the most important part for me, and practicing it too. Doing the geeky computer stuff isn't just simple and meaningless either we gained a one car lead in several races due to an improvement with an information display I added to the dash board a few weeks ago that let our driver focus on the track more, this is actually huge.
Also RodeoFyler the whole reason for the existence of my car is to embarrass Ferrari owners at the race track. They are deeply overpriced cars, so me in a used mustang with $25,000 of mods being faster is gratifying. Personally if I was making a racing series I'd make it so that everyone has to spend the same amount of money, that would really kill all of those Ferraris etc.
It clearly must be made of a transparent material lol.
According to many sources the redesign was there to fix the most common squeek that appeared as one of the top warranty problems with the car. It also coincided with the GT500 program where the body was changed to work with the GT500 parts across all the years so changes could have happened for that too. This has nothing to do with stiffening. The noise wasn't just some minor sound either, I had it appear on my Saleen for a few months for no reason and then it stopped, it was really really annoying.
It's added so that the people who bought the strut tower brace as an option for the non-trackpak cars wouldn't feel stupid. Ford is very smart in terms of marketing and this is definitely on their level of thinking and marketing ethics.
If you can't feel the differnce of the effect of the stiffness, but you CAN tell the difference of the performance over a couple of pounds of weight difference from the brace, well, that just seems a little ridiculous.
And if you're such a forum expert you should have noticed that before you flamed me for buying one for a purpose I didn't buy it for.
To clarify, I can't feel the effect in weight, nor stiffness. With weld in ladder frames I can feel the difference however in stiffness. I'm not really magical in nature, I can't figure out that you don't want it for handling and that you want it for looks when you say neither of those.
Anyway I'm glad you got yourself involved in this discussion, it gets you and others to be smart about things which was the point.
My primary income for the past 3 years is doing by bodyshop estimates for a very high end shop, which still involves 80% work on Toyota Corollas with cloth seats ha ha. If this is really about crash damage I would say that the two biggest ways of getting damage to the strut towers are by crashing into another car or hitting your wheel on something, impulse cars mentioned that there is little deflection when the suspension hits something, and the other possibility leaves you with bigger problems. Having aligned strut towers is important in repairing a car, but I would argue that maybe your body guy isn't reading the deflection within reason and putting too much emphasis on it all. You're within reason to have up to 6mm of play in a car like the Mustang, this develops even without a crash. I know you've already made your mind up about the crash effects, but I just thought if you wanted to talk it through with him you'd be able to bring up what I just said.
Also RodeoFyler the whole reason for the existence of my car is to embarrass Ferrari owners at the race track. They are deeply overpriced cars, so me in a used mustang with $25,000 of mods being faster is gratifying. Personally if I was making a racing series I'd make it so that everyone has to spend the same amount of money, that would really kill all of those Ferraris etc.
Look under the hood of any S197 race car and point out the strut tower brace for me. Happy hunting.
You probably don't have your spare tire in your race car either, but that don't mean I don't want the extra security in my daily driver.
Yeah, Legion is a little crass, and the both of you agree that the brace is a waste. But as I said before . . .
Ford Motor Company wasn't happy with the quality of the 05-06 towers and they changed them because of that reason, so why shouldn't I brace mine a little just to be on the safe side if I want. I'm not trying to shave weight for the track so what does it hurt? It's my money and it can't possible hurt my ride to do it. What's the big deal?
Yeah, Legion is a little crass, and the both of you agree that the brace is a waste. But as I said before . . .
Ford Motor Company wasn't happy with the quality of the 05-06 towers and they changed them because of that reason, so why shouldn't I brace mine a little just to be on the safe side if I want. I'm not trying to shave weight for the track so what does it hurt? It's my money and it can't possible hurt my ride to do it. What's the big deal?
If you can't feel the differnce of the effect of the stiffness, but you CAN tell the difference of the performance over a couple of pounds of weight difference from the brace, well, that just seems a little ridiculous.
And if you're such a forum expert you should have noticed that before you flamed me for buying one for a purpose I didn't buy it for.
Anyway I'm glad you got yourself involved in this discussion, it gets you and others to be smart about things which was the point.
My primary income for the past 3 years is doing by bodyshop estimates for a very high end shop, which still involves 80% work on Toyota Corollas with cloth seats ha ha. If this is really about crash damage I would say that the two biggest ways of getting damage to the strut towers are by crashing into another car or hitting your wheel on something, impulse cars mentioned that there is little deflection when the suspension hits something, and the other possibility leaves you with bigger problems. Having aligned strut towers is important in repairing a car, but I would argue that maybe your body guy isn't reading the deflection within reason and putting too much emphasis on it all. You're within reason to have up to 6mm of play in a car like the Mustang, this develops even without a crash. I know you've already made your mind up about the crash effects, but I just thought if you wanted to talk it through with him you'd be able to bring up what I just said.
Last edited by Legion5; 10-13-2009 at 08:33 PM.
10-13-2009, 08:50 PM
#29
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Memphis
Posts: 2,377
If I didn't know any better, I'd say you thought pretty highly of yourself.
Great post. I've honestly quit posting here for that very reason.
I have more associations and have been given more free parts than most people on here. I choose not to name drop, because frankly it's tacky. Those same people lurk on these boards and laugh and shake their heads at the amount of BS being passed around. They think most of the people on here are tools.
Last edited by EagleStroker; 10-13-2009 at 09:01 PM.
10-13-2009, 10:19 PM
#30
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pell City, Alabama
Posts: 88
As you can see I do not make many post, I read alot and learn alot, but I decided to on this topic. I bought a Mustang GT, Grabber Orange by the way, because I just loved the car. I have added the required newbie things, JLT CAI, custom tune, hood pins, 3:73 rear, flowmasters, hurst shifter and just recently, like yesterday a strut tower brace. A double bar polished one from Granatelli for $70 including shipping.
You see, I don't care if it does anything! I don't race, although I do hot rod around alot more than I should. The reason I bought it....I think it looks cool as hell.
I am 44 years old, and my youngest daughter left last year to go to Auburn University, and not too many COOL 
things happen in my life anymore. The powder coated valve covers do nothing either, but they also look cool as hell.
Bottom line, I like it, even if it does add 1 or 2 pounds to my car and I love this car!
You see, I don't care if it does anything! I don't race, although I do hot rod around alot more than I should. The reason I bought it....I think it looks cool as hell.
I am 44 years old, and my youngest daughter left last year to go to Auburn University, and not too many COOL things happen in my life anymore. The powder coated valve covers do nothing either, but they also look cool as hell.Bottom line, I like it, even if it does add 1 or 2 pounds to my car and I love this car!