Alignment after lowering
6th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,635
From: state of confusion
How's your driving the rest of the time?
Just as a rough frame of reference, my car sits at about -1.2° camber with nothing in the suspension changed (other than the rear shocks, Sam). I'm getting very even wear at that setting, and I drive the corners pretty enthusiastically just about all of the time. I know about where my lateral g's are, and about the level where most other folks drive their cars at. Or I could get my wife, kids, and at least two of the grandkids to provide anecdotal comment.
Slight toe-in is generally preferable for street driving and I imagine for higher speed open-tracking where you might not want quite as much response. Slight toe-out can help cornering at the lower speeds and tighter radius turns that are more in line with autocross driving (but won't help enough at "street intensity driving" to be worth doing, and can easily cause "twitchy" street driving behavior). On my other RWD car I used to set 1/32" in before I started playing with one camber setting for street and a separate (much more negative) setting for auto-X.
Lowering affects camber, which in turn affects toe. A "front-steer" car - the rack sits in front of the axle line - normally toes toward 'out' as ride height is dropped. Toe change as a pure function of alignment procedure camber adjustment depends on the details of the camber adjustment and could end up going either toward 'in' or toward 'out'.
Norm
Just as a rough frame of reference, my car sits at about -1.2° camber with nothing in the suspension changed (other than the rear shocks, Sam). I'm getting very even wear at that setting, and I drive the corners pretty enthusiastically just about all of the time. I know about where my lateral g's are, and about the level where most other folks drive their cars at. Or I could get my wife, kids, and at least two of the grandkids to provide anecdotal comment.
Slight toe-in is generally preferable for street driving and I imagine for higher speed open-tracking where you might not want quite as much response. Slight toe-out can help cornering at the lower speeds and tighter radius turns that are more in line with autocross driving (but won't help enough at "street intensity driving" to be worth doing, and can easily cause "twitchy" street driving behavior). On my other RWD car I used to set 1/32" in before I started playing with one camber setting for street and a separate (much more negative) setting for auto-X.
Lowering affects camber, which in turn affects toe. A "front-steer" car - the rack sits in front of the axle line - normally toes toward 'out' as ride height is dropped. Toe change as a pure function of alignment procedure camber adjustment depends on the details of the camber adjustment and could end up going either toward 'in' or toward 'out'.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; Feb 4, 2010 at 03:48 PM.
Thread Starter
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 738
From: Louisiana
How's your driving the rest of the time?
Just as a rough frame of reference, my car sits at about -1.2° camber with nothing in the suspension changed (other than the rear shocks, Sam). I'm getting very even wear at that setting, and I drive the corners pretty enthusiastically just about all of the time. I know about where my lateral g's are, and about the level where most other folks drive their cars at. Or I could get my wife, kids, and at least two of the grandkids to provide anecdotal comment.
Slight toe-in is generally preferable for street driving and I imagine for higher speed open-tracking where you might not want quite as much response. Slight toe-out can help cornering at the lower speeds and tighter radius turns that are more in line with autocross driving (but won't help enough at "street intensity driving" to be worth doing, and can easily cause "twitchy" street driving behavior). On my other RWD car I used to set 1/32" in before I started playing with one camber setting for street and a separate (much more negative) setting for auto-X.
Lowering affects camber, which in turn affects toe. A "front-steer" car - the rack sits in front of the axle line - normally toes toward 'out' as ride height is dropped. Toe change as a pure function of alignment procedure camber adjustment depends on the details of the camber adjustment and could end up going either toward 'in' or toward 'out'.
Norm
Just as a rough frame of reference, my car sits at about -1.2° camber with nothing in the suspension changed (other than the rear shocks, Sam). I'm getting very even wear at that setting, and I drive the corners pretty enthusiastically just about all of the time. I know about where my lateral g's are, and about the level where most other folks drive their cars at. Or I could get my wife, kids, and at least two of the grandkids to provide anecdotal comment.
Slight toe-in is generally preferable for street driving and I imagine for higher speed open-tracking where you might not want quite as much response. Slight toe-out can help cornering at the lower speeds and tighter radius turns that are more in line with autocross driving (but won't help enough at "street intensity driving" to be worth doing, and can easily cause "twitchy" street driving behavior). On my other RWD car I used to set 1/32" in before I started playing with one camber setting for street and a separate (much more negative) setting for auto-X.
Lowering affects camber, which in turn affects toe. A "front-steer" car - the rack sits in front of the axle line - normally toes toward 'out' as ride height is dropped. Toe change as a pure function of alignment procedure camber adjustment depends on the details of the camber adjustment and could end up going either toward 'in' or toward 'out'.
Norm
So basically when lowering it changes the suspension to where toe in or toe out might actually be straight for me, even though it's not considered 0 toe (if there is such a measurement possibility). So saying to keep it toed in might not be correct as to get it correctly aligned I may need to go toe out, correct?
Also, I drive pretty aggressivley on the street as well, provided that it's dry that is. Not that I am a wreckless driver but sometimes I just can't help myself ya know lol. I know that statement is subjective and I really don't have G numbers to help communicate what "aggressive" means. I don't drive like I do on the track, I sometimes take it to the point where I am barely gripping the road anymore on the track just to see what she can do. Due to that I know how far I can take her and if my track driving were 100% I would say my street driving is somewhere around 65-75%.
What I may do is try a few different settings and see what I like, I think that's what it's going to come down to.
Last edited by gmoran1469; Feb 4, 2010 at 06:10 PM.
6th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,635
From: state of confusion
Zero toe is certainly possible, but probably not what you want. It is possible for a slight toe-in setting go to zero by just lowering the car
Toe-in is where you want your street and high speed setting. It's more stable than toe-out. Never mind that negative camber plus toe out tends to beat up on the inside shoulders of the tires
Toe-out is really just an autocross setting, as there isn't any other kind of driving where you really need to be cornering that hard on such consistently tight turns.
Norm
Toe-in is where you want your street and high speed setting. It's more stable than toe-out. Never mind that negative camber plus toe out tends to beat up on the inside shoulders of the tires
Toe-out is really just an autocross setting, as there isn't any other kind of driving where you really need to be cornering that hard on such consistently tight turns.
Norm
Former Sponsor
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 107
From: CA
Jesus if you do NOT have an incredible understanding of suspension do NOT try to align a car yourself. unless you string the outside of the car you cannot truly adjust toe anyway. Even if you know the differnce now between / \ and \ /!!! If you try to measure toe and set it based on those figures, you will only be adjusting total toe and not actual side to side toe whcih can great affect overall driving. You could be over 1/4" off from the naked eye and the total toe will still read correct. Please just take your car and pay a shop to align it for you and you will be just as happy considering you're not racing all the time.
Just relax and have fun in your car!
Just relax and have fun in your car!
Thread Starter
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 738
From: Louisiana
Jesus if you do NOT have an incredible understanding of suspension do NOT try to align a car yourself. unless you string the outside of the car you cannot truly adjust toe anyway. Even if you know the differnce now between / \ and \ /!!! If you try to measure toe and set it based on those figures, you will only be adjusting total toe and not actual side to side toe whcih can great affect overall driving. You could be over 1/4" off from the naked eye and the total toe will still read correct. Please just take your car and pay a shop to align it for you and you will be just as happy considering you're not racing all the time.
Just relax and have fun in your car!
Just relax and have fun in your car!
Last edited by gmoran1469; Feb 5, 2010 at 12:19 PM.
S197 Section Modder-ator
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,373
From: Orlando FL
Team Stillen? I hope to god you aren't some kind of rep or something for a company. First off why don't you read the damn thread before coming in here and letting the most random **** spew from your head. I never said I was going to try and align it myself. In fact I made sure to STATE the EXACT OPPOSITE. I need to know what to tell the guy aligning it, as in how I want the camber and toe adjusted. I need to learn about alignment, which is what I am doing... You just need to learn how to read.
He's a legit vendor here (recent but legit) and it still was a good advice from him despite the misreading.
Don't kill him yet, lol.
Thread Starter
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 738
From: Louisiana
Former Sponsor
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
I'd just go zero toe myself and be done with it. As an autoxer I run some toe out (not much, less than most). I run that on the street too, and I'd avoid any extreme toe-in, 1/32" is very little that'd be fine too. Just around zero to a hair in or out (I run 1/16" out which is next to nothing, but like the response and feel that comes with it).
Thread Starter
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 738
From: Louisiana
I'd just go zero toe myself and be done with it. As an autoxer I run some toe out (not much, less than most). I run that on the street too, and I'd avoid any extreme toe-in, 1/32" is very little that'd be fine too. Just around zero to a hair in or out (I run 1/16" out which is next to nothing, but like the response and feel that comes with it).