fasterplease

I have taken my car to a half dozen track days and about the same number of visits to kart track nearby. I have made some mods and am looking for some input on what the next round of mods should be. The road course tracks I get to are Buttonwillow and Streets of Willow (probably will see Fontana Roval in 2011 too ). I did a couple of drag days but that is not my cup of tea.

My goal is to have a car that may be driven to work but is primarily setup to run fast at the track, on road courses. I know that improving my driving is the most important part and I am working on that too.

To start with, my setup is Steeda sport springs, Tokico D-specs, J&M LCA, adjustable panhard, 18x9.5 Steeda Pentar rims with 275/40/18 NT05's. Brakes are stock size and I run for the track DTC-60 and HT10 Hawk pads, with DOT4 fluid.

I am able to hang with guys running fairly stock EVO's or M3's. 2:13's at Buttonwillow and 1:31 at Streets.

I guess I will say how I feel about each aspect of the car:

Brakes I always seem to have plenty and now with better pads it is not eating a new set every track day. The rear pads wear faster than the front even with DSC turned off but still looks like about 4 track days per set. So OK there (I think). It would be nice to not have to change brakes at start and end of each track day though. What is a setup that would afford me this luxury?

Wheels and Tires I only added the Nitto's recently and they were a big improvement over the Kumho's I had before. I know the next step is a dedicated track set of Hoosier's or NT01's. Pricey so that won't be right away. What do you guys think is the best track and street compromise tire?

Sway Bars/Kart Track The kart track is 3/4 mile with very tight turns. I see a lot of body roll and know a good set of anti-roll bars will help. Which ones will be best across each of the driving I am doing?

Springs and Dampers The improvement in cornering with this setup versus stock was amazing. So it feels good to me. I adjust the dampers and have experienced that there is such a thing as too stiff which makes cornering worse but the best for track is stiffer than what you really want to drive to work. I know there a lot of options here and I would probably only upgrade down the track after I have made some of these other improvements. Any thoughts?

Camber I am running about 1o negative which is how it landed after adding the springs. I am not sure what driving feel tells me if I should run more or not. The wear on the tires is worst on the outer part of the middle strip, not on the outer shoulder which may mean I am running to much air pressure. The feel from the wheel got sloppy when I dropped pressure 3 or 4psi, which I did not like so I put it back up 2psi which felt good. Thoughts on weather camber more would help cornering speed or at least turn in? If so, which camber plates have worked well for you?

Strut Tower Brace = Tow Hook? I have not found a good tow hook (luckily haven't needed one but I am sure that won't last) for the front of the mustang. Anyone know a good one? If not I will add a STB just to have a front tow point besides hooking under the bumper. Did anyone find the STB helped with handling?

Aero There are 3 sections at Buttonwillow where I exceed 100MPH and each of these leads to some fast turns (one of them is a series of wide turns) and there are some fast sweepers and esses. I am pretty sure aero would help with taking these faster. Question is: what? A big racing wing and/or a chin splitter seem obvious. Anyone had any experiences with these?

Total Geometry Change I looked at the Griggs system and it makes sense that an SLA setup will perform better than Macpherson struts but it is soooo expensive. I will do that when I am ready to compete in a race. I know some of the people here have done it. Any comments?

Power I have been running bone stock in this department. I was considering Supercharging but after all the problems I saw guys having at the drag strip in a quarter mile I felt there is no way it was suitable for 20 - 25 minutes of hard driving. So I ordered a CAI and tune, X-pipe and under-drive pulleys this week. Comments and criticisms welcome.

I am looking forward to your input on some or all (or anything I overlooked) of these aspects of driving Mustangs fast.

Thanks and Happy New Year!



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smokinAMD

I'd seriously ditch the panhard bar setup and go to a watts link. You would eliminate the issue of the axle going side to side with suspension travel, it would make cornering a lot more predictable and a lot more fun.

nemosgt

Be careful with tire pressure. Higher pressures may feel and steer better because of smaller contact area, while a larger contact area, (less pressure) may feel sloppier, as you noticed, but might actually give you faster cornering. Check your times to be sure.

Also a lot of people here are pro Watts, but again weigh the cost/benefits first.

Cheers.

fasterplease

You make a lot of sense about the tire pressure. I will have to experiment better next time.

The Watts link is intriguing. I read a lot of good stuff about them but then again I have read that it is more complication compared to the benefit. Anyone who has run them can describe the difference with and without?

Norm Peterson

The first quick answer is to run a more negative camber setting, particularly for the kart venue. -1° is hardly any more negative than the -0.75° OE setting that was chosen as being suitable for the entire population of street-driven S197's. I'd suggest starting your experimentation at -1.5°. Depending on how "enthusiastic" your daily driving is with respect to cornering, that can still be a "live-able" setting, with the proper toe setting. FWIW, I'm past -1.5° and my car is street-driven only (so far, anyway).

If you were to get camber plates or the Steeda HD upper strut mounts, you could swap between a more conservative street camber setting and a more aggressive track setting (I did exactly this for three years autocrossing the #85CP that shows up in one of my albums). With a little care in choosing toe settings, you might be able to get away with adjusting only camber at the track by re-setting the plates/strut mounts and letting the toe go a tiny bit in the 'out' direction. This might be most valuable on that tight kart track.

Agreed on tinkering with tire pressures. You probably want slightly higher pressure up front than out back. The idea here is that the front tires give you turn-in response, and the lower rear pressure gives better mechanical grip (which I think translates to slightly better resistance to getting into oversteer). The difference in slip angles would be in the direction of reducing mid-corner understeer. Like nemo said, experiment cautiously. If it helps any, I think Sam Strano runs something like 34f/30r in his R-compounds at autocross, and I'm in that neighborhood on my street tires.


(Off-topic, off-the-wall-tip . . . to get the "degree" character, hold the [Alt] key down while typing 248 using the keypad numbers, not the "typewriter" numbers that are just under the F1 - F12 keys)

Norm

fasterplease

Thanks Norm. I will start with those tire pressures and take it from there. And your experience with camber settings is appreciated. (ON your side note: Had to do ALT 0 to get 2º with my puny mac keyboard - no number pad. Thanks for raising my standards ).

I just read through the recent thread on watts links. It is pretty good and I am convinced I will get one...question is when? The next round of mods will be a trade of camber and sway bars versus watts link (budgetary concerns). Which ones are going to help more?

moochman4life

Hey man, I'm a couple track days short of your total, but I'm supercharged and have not had one single issue on the stock block with the stock drivetrain (added my driveshaft after my second day). Considering that I LOVE toying around on the street (fairly aggressive driving, hehe), hitting the strip, and I've had the blower for about a year...plus it's a DD when I'm not on the train...I think it says a lot. I've tooled around with it when it was hot, and now cold. Gotta say that I love it...

Especially on the track where I can really open it up.

Oh, I run HT10's up front and HP+'s in the rear with stock rotors. Has stopped almost always when I needed her to. Only exceptions were turn 1 at VIR when I was trying to brake after marker 2, intentionally trying to brake later. Never went off (not even close), but just didnt hit my turn like I wanted. Corrected and found my "good" brake point: AT marker 2.

Argonaut

For Braking: there really isn't a good 'compormise' pad. All pads that work on the track will be noisy and dusty on the street. The one I've tried that comes closest is the CarboTech XP10, XP8 combo. You don't indicate if you have brake ducts...if not, get them. Keep those brake temps cooler and your pad/rotor/bearing life will improve. Strange your rear pads are wearing faster than fronts, my cars have always been the other way around.

Tires: the NT555RII is a great compromise tire - drive to and from events. The NT01 and ToyoR888 can also be street driven, as can the Falken RT615 (now replaced by the 615K). But, if any of these were to be your full DD tires there are a few things to know: they are ok in a lt rain but not good and they are worthless in any kind of heavy rain. They wear fairly quick - you might get 10K street miles out of them. They are no good in cold weather. When hot they pick up every little stone and throw it on the side of the car - particularly the softer 888 and NT01. For all these reasons, if you can swing it, the better solution is to have two sets of tires/rims + then you can get racing scurbs (Hoosiers, Dunlops, etc) and they are much cheaper.

Couple other things you didn't mention: a proper seat with a 5 or 6 point harness makes a huge difference. It does a couple things: it keeps you secured instead of sliding around, so you can put more energy into concentration and proper hand and foot inputs rather than bracing yourself. Also it allows you to feel the car better - your butt, hamstrings and backside are the parts of your body most in contact with the car. They are where you can most feel what the car is doing and anticipate what its about to do. The stock seats, by design, isolate you from this. Racing seats have less and firmer padding. Its like a whole new relationship with your car. Of course, this good ness comes with a price - you would need a harness bar to properly mount the shoulder straps and, most track day organizers that offer instruction will demand equivalent seating - thus you would need two seats, two harnesses and a harness bar, starts to get pretty pricey. But IMO well worth it. While you are at it, if you do get harnesses you should get a HANS type neck protecting device (can't rely on an air bad to save your neck when wearing a harness).

Final note - you mention racing is possibly in your future. If so you need to be thinking ahead right now: are you going to race your current car? If so, then be careful with your mods. All racing series have rules on what mods you can and can't do. It is very easy to do some performance mod, only to find out later it bumps you into a higher class. That Griggs SLA will bump you way up in classes and likely put you in competition with big buck guys driving high HP, highly modified cars.

Import_Slaya

I had a very similar suspension setup to your car (D-specs, Eibach Prokit, NT05's), but also had the FRPP swaybars and a set of camber plates.

For brakes, I have the Brembo fronts, although they aren't needed at a track like Buttonwillow (or WSIR) IMHO. I've found EBC yellow pads (front and rear) to be a good compromise pad that works fine on the street and holds up on the track without issue (the Blue is even better). Yes, there are more aggressive pads, but (1) I don't like the hassle of changing pads for the event; and (2) you can't beat the price of the EBC's. I do have 3" ducts up front. ***Full disclosure: I was one of their "test drivers" for development of their Blue compound and now get their pads for free. But...I bought their pads prior to that time and would still buy them.


At Buttonwillow 13CW, I ran 2:10's with that setup, and I've only had a handful of days at Buttonwillow since moving out here, so there is still time left in the car and driver. I've since upgraded to the GC coilover conversion and higher spring rates (and gears and a TruTrack), but only had a chance to hit Buttonwillow in the rain, so no lap time comparisons yet...

As for next mods--I would suggest sticking with the NT05's until they are worn out. I've run the 555RII and RA1 in the past and the NT05 is probably a few seconds slower on a track like Buttonwillow. But there's no trophy in HPDE, is there? They are quick enough, handle the heat very well, and are very predictable. Once they are corded, then upgrade.

For brakes, like I mentioned above, I just don't think the Brembos are necessary on the tracks I've run out here in California. Use a set of decent pads, run some ducting and decent fluid and you will be fine. If you have the cash, then by all means do the upgrade--it just isn't a top priority.

Camber. Get some. Seriously, if you can get another degree of negative camber you'll notice a bit more front end bite. I have the Maximum Motorsports plates and like their design, but most out there (Steeda, J&M, GC, Kmac) all seem to do the job just fine.

Getting a tune was a smart move. I'm not convinced it makes that car a huge amount faster, but the difference in pedal feel is the main reason to prioritize this. I found it impossible to heel/toe with the stock throttle mapping (dead spot?). With a tune, you can have your tuner tweak pedal response to your liking.

Get some decent tow hooks. I have the FRPP rings and they are light and solid. I put them to good use again in the rain two weeks ago!

I wouldn't mess with the geometry of the suspension--as long as you don't lower too much, it isn't too much of an issue. Plus, if you decide to time trial or w2w down the road, those mods may not be allowed (or cost huge points). I'm toying with a Watts link and will probably end up with the Fays2 some time this year. It's easy enough to remove if I need to down the road.

Aero--heh, heh. That's something I'd like to play with a little this year. I've gathered info and plans for making a foam core carbon fiber wing and plan on making one some time in the next few months. Same for a splitter. I think on the two tracks I run most (Buttonwillow and WSIR), aero could be huge due to their high speed sweepers.

What groups do you run with out here? I run with NASA and SpeedVentures and like them both for different reasons.

fasterplease

Guys, thanks for your input. It is really helpful.

I will do the brake ducts (neither of you spoke about ducts to the rear..)? I have scoped out some fans for the back because I can't see adding the ram air attachment on the side of the car (I like it looking the way it does now). Interesting you said the EBC yellows worked with ducts because I destroyed a set in a day at Buttonwillow.

Argonaut, your points on seats and harness is good. I have heard that from people who rode with me on the track as they watched me bracing myself with knees and elbows around those big sweepers. Can you get that setup so you can use the regular belt for street driving.

Tires - yeah, clearly I need a dedicated track set. One day on Streets of Willow looked to remove about half the useful rubber on the NT05's.

Camber - seems unanimous.

No one has mentioned sway bars. I thought I might here from Sam Strano on that point.

Import Slaya, I run with Speedventures, haven't gotten the courage to do NASA yet. I love that you can be 3 seconds faster in the same car. I definitely need more seat time. Reading Ross Bentley books is only going to help me if I can practice too. Are you heading out later in January? Maybe we can run together? Show the M3's what it's all about!