Lowering 2011 GT
08-09-2011, 02:03 PM
#21
I *just* drove back from the shop where I had Ford Racing springs put under my 2012 GT. I'm impressed. Looks AND handles better. Ride is a little more harsh but NBD. I'm sure upgrading the rest of the suspension would yield similar results.
08-09-2011, 02:14 PM
#22
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
And 5k, 10k, 25k miles from now when the dampers are overwhelmed by the higher spring rate, and can't damp the springs in the amount of travel you'll find the ride and stability will have degraded significantly, the car will feel less secure, and more harsh yet.
08-09-2011, 02:27 PM
#23
Cool, I'll keep an eye on it. If /when you're right I'll address it.
08-09-2011, 06:13 PM
#24
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 155
Now that I have 2000 km and (only) one track day on my Koni Sport/steeda sport setup, I think I'll weigh-in.
On the street, I run at the koni's softest setting, and find the ride more comfortable than stock (8000 km). The car looks fantastic, I can't believe how much difference a 1" drop made! The looks are a bonus, all I was going for is better performance. I would have accepted ride degradation for more grip and control, but didn't have to.
I have done only one track event with this setup at a fast track, so I still have a lot to discover about this setup. My anti-roll bars are stock. I found the car a bit over-steery in steady-state corners. I don't like that, so I started increasing stiffness at the front, and staggered my tire pressures by about 1 psi (42/41 hot - softer at the rear). At the end of the day I was at max stiffness in front (2 turns) and 75% (1 1/2 turns) at the back. The ride was still compliant, but the track is smooth. After that the car was well balanced with my driving style.
I run with the intermediate group. There were three Ferraris (!) at this event, 2 * 430s and a 599. The 599 driver was the best of that group. I was able to make up the power deficit to the 430s with cornering speed. the 599 and I were about equal on corner speed, but of course 604 Hp is a lot, and he ended up faster than me. In the last session we went out with the advanced group and I hooked up with a new GT3. In case you're wondering, a GT3 is much faster than a mustang in a straight line. It seemed even faster than the 599! But again, my cornering speed was higher, and when he let me by, I crept away from him. A 911 turbo with a pro at the wheel left me for dead: faster in the corners, faster down the straights, harder on the brakes; much better driver.
So was the car "better"? It's difficult to say for certain, since I don't time myself. Stock, the car is fun, but the current setup is more predictable and tunable, which I like more. Would I have been able to go that fast with as much confidence with any other suspension setup? Doubt it.
On the street, I run at the koni's softest setting, and find the ride more comfortable than stock (8000 km). The car looks fantastic, I can't believe how much difference a 1" drop made! The looks are a bonus, all I was going for is better performance. I would have accepted ride degradation for more grip and control, but didn't have to.
I have done only one track event with this setup at a fast track, so I still have a lot to discover about this setup. My anti-roll bars are stock. I found the car a bit over-steery in steady-state corners. I don't like that, so I started increasing stiffness at the front, and staggered my tire pressures by about 1 psi (42/41 hot - softer at the rear). At the end of the day I was at max stiffness in front (2 turns) and 75% (1 1/2 turns) at the back. The ride was still compliant, but the track is smooth. After that the car was well balanced with my driving style.
I run with the intermediate group. There were three Ferraris (!) at this event, 2 * 430s and a 599. The 599 driver was the best of that group. I was able to make up the power deficit to the 430s with cornering speed. the 599 and I were about equal on corner speed, but of course 604 Hp is a lot, and he ended up faster than me. In the last session we went out with the advanced group and I hooked up with a new GT3. In case you're wondering, a GT3 is much faster than a mustang in a straight line. It seemed even faster than the 599! But again, my cornering speed was higher, and when he let me by, I crept away from him. A 911 turbo with a pro at the wheel left me for dead: faster in the corners, faster down the straights, harder on the brakes; much better driver.
So was the car "better"? It's difficult to say for certain, since I don't time myself. Stock, the car is fun, but the current setup is more predictable and tunable, which I like more. Would I have been able to go that fast with as much confidence with any other suspension setup? Doubt it.
Last edited by Ansibe; 08-09-2011 at 06:18 PM.
08-10-2011, 12:01 AM
#25
Really? I mean *really*? So somehow magically your suspension works better because it's on the street? It couldn't possibly be because you just don't know what you are missing? Let me put it this way. There are plenty of people who never mod their cars, AT ALL. You did. But you aren't a "pro", so why????????????????????? I mean you seem to imply it won't matter anyway. Or is it that it matters, but only to the degree that you think it matters? That seems to be more the case here.
I'm here to help, and I gotta tell you it pisses me off beyond words when I hear that I'm hear to push parts on people without caring about the result. If you knew anything about me, you know I've got this reputation for talking folks OUT of things they don't need. I'm honest, to a fault sometimes.... and I call things the way I see them.
I'm sorry that parts are not free, that they cost money to buy. And I'm sorry that there are times we want to change parts to get a result. I guess I'm guilty of not really giving a crap since I happen to make my living doing setups and selling *appropriate* parts. Sad. I really don't think that makes me a bad person, and moreover it doesn't make me wrong.
Let me sum it up. If you guys reading this ask anyone who's upgraded dampers whether or not it was worth it, you'll find about 99.8% saying "hell yes". It's easy to say it's not worth it when you yourself haven't done it. This happens all the time, and it's a little frustrating. And fwiw, most of those folks I spoke of above, most of them aren't "pro's" or "racer's" either.
I'm here to help, and I gotta tell you it pisses me off beyond words when I hear that I'm hear to push parts on people without caring about the result. If you knew anything about me, you know I've got this reputation for talking folks OUT of things they don't need. I'm honest, to a fault sometimes.... and I call things the way I see them.
I'm sorry that parts are not free, that they cost money to buy. And I'm sorry that there are times we want to change parts to get a result. I guess I'm guilty of not really giving a crap since I happen to make my living doing setups and selling *appropriate* parts. Sad. I really don't think that makes me a bad person, and moreover it doesn't make me wrong.
Let me sum it up. If you guys reading this ask anyone who's upgraded dampers whether or not it was worth it, you'll find about 99.8% saying "hell yes". It's easy to say it's not worth it when you yourself haven't done it. This happens all the time, and it's a little frustrating. And fwiw, most of those folks I spoke of above, most of them aren't "pro's" or "racer's" either.
I am but one opinion, and many folks have better, more or different experience from mine. I think the upgrades are worth every penny, and I spend my money on premium parts when I spend it. It's not aboout being cheap. To me, it's about compromise. If I don't plan to autocross, drag race or anything more specific that run around the countryside as fast as I dare with my history of citations, then I don't think I NEED the upgraded shocks. Would I like 'em? Sure. Need 'em? No. Have I done it before? Yes. Regrets? No.
Stock suspension is about compromise. They have to make it handle becasue we expect it. They have to make it ride nice because others expect it. It has to manage potholed back country roads and glass smooth freeways. Stock suspension can't be everything, so it compromises. With my needs this is OK. More specialized equipment won't be wrong, it just may not be right as frequently in my use.
I lowered my car. That is the single biggest improvement in handling I can make. It lowered the center of gravity and came with increased spring rates, though not as high as I see in some competition products. I can improve it more. Later.
Just so I am clear, how long should OE struts and shocks last? Any answer having a number of miles is bull****. It DEPENDS on usage, conditions, driving habits, etc. Will it be sooner than with OE springs? Probably.
I have no problem at all with your expertise. I just tire of so many insisting that gradual steps up are insufficient. If I swap all the parts and handling goes to hell, I've changed too many things to be sure where I missed. Changing one thing at a time allows assessment of one choice. These threads turn into debates all the time around one question. "Do I NEED new shocks when i change springs?". That answer is simply no. If you care to argue that they are a good idea or more desireable, there's no way anyone could shoot that down. Is it a MUST? No. Set aside all your specific opinions and try to imagine the needs of the OP. If he really NEEDS new struts/shocks, he is doing something that demands it, competition, etc. At that point it's a new question. "Do I NEED new shocks or struts to be competitive? be quicker around the track? eliminate understeer on the bumps?" To those questions, I am sure you are better qualified to answer. Your track record says so. What's my record? Years of taming unmanagable street cars. Some were poorly home brewed, some were six figure custom cars out of nationally known shops. All were street cars, asked to do a little bit of everything well. You are right that 98% of buyers agree new struts and shocks are a good investment. What % were headed for the track?
By the way, I never said you were here to push parts. Your signature is unobtrusive and you never promote a purchase in your replies. That honest to a fault, call it as you see it part; That's one thing we have in common.
OP, my apologies for steering this so far off course. I have a strong belief that every debate has potential to enlighten everyone within the blast radius.
08-10-2011, 10:07 AM
#26
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 80
Since we have everyone here talking about this, I have a set of Steeda Ultralites sitting in my basement (D-Specs already on), and I was wondering, to put them on and see a net gain what must be done? I have a list of things I want to do, but money is getting in the way. With the drop in ride height of the Ultralites are Caster Camber plates a must? How far out is the rear going to be on the stock Panhard bar?
So many parts, so few "how to"s that are car specific.
2011 Mustang GT daily driver/autox
So many parts, so few "how to"s that are car specific.
2011 Mustang GT daily driver/autox
08-10-2011, 11:41 AM
#27
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Do you know where the cambers are at now?
Is your autocross driving a big enough part of the total amount of driving or is your normal driving consistently hard enough to justify cambers that will be something like 0.7° more negative than they are now?
About here it's probably also worth thinking about the upper strut mounts. While I have no idea how many miles are on them or what they've been through, I know they've been removed and reinstalled at least once already. If there's any chance they'll need replacement either now or in the near future, now would be a really good time to consider the Steeda HD's.
From a purely geometric point of view, the axle shouldn't move much at all. But that doesn't seem to agree with some peoples' experience, so maybe there's something going on with the PHB bushings and on whether people commonly loosen and retorque the PHB bolts when they lower the car. Wait and see is the best advice I can give.
Norm
Is your autocross driving a big enough part of the total amount of driving or is your normal driving consistently hard enough to justify cambers that will be something like 0.7° more negative than they are now?
About here it's probably also worth thinking about the upper strut mounts. While I have no idea how many miles are on them or what they've been through, I know they've been removed and reinstalled at least once already. If there's any chance they'll need replacement either now or in the near future, now would be a really good time to consider the Steeda HD's.
From a purely geometric point of view, the axle shouldn't move much at all. But that doesn't seem to agree with some peoples' experience, so maybe there's something going on with the PHB bushings and on whether people commonly loosen and retorque the PHB bolts when they lower the car. Wait and see is the best advice I can give.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 08-10-2011 at 11:43 AM.
08-10-2011, 01:44 PM
#28
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
Sam, I am with you on every point. I think I failed to make mine clear.
I am but one opinion, and many folks have better, more or different experience from mine. I think the upgrades are worth every penny, and I spend my money on premium parts when I spend it. It's not aboout being cheap. To me, it's about compromise. If I don't plan to autocross, drag race or anything more specific that run around the countryside as fast as I dare with my history of citations, then I don't think I NEED the upgraded shocks. Would I like 'em? Sure. Need 'em? No. Have I done it before? Yes. Regrets? No.
Stock suspension is about compromise. They have to make it handle becasue we expect it. They have to make it ride nice because others expect it. It has to manage potholed back country roads and glass smooth freeways. Stock suspension can't be everything, so it compromises. With my needs this is OK. More specialized equipment won't be wrong, it just may not be right as frequently in my use.
I lowered my car. That is the single biggest improvement in handling I can make. It lowered the center of gravity and came with increased spring rates, though not as high as I see in some competition products. I can improve it more. Later.
Just so I am clear, how long should OE struts and shocks last? Any answer having a number of miles is bull****. It DEPENDS on usage, conditions, driving habits, etc. Will it be sooner than with OE springs? Probably.
I have no problem at all with your expertise. I just tire of so many insisting that gradual steps up are insufficient. If I swap all the parts and handling goes to hell, I've changed too many things to be sure where I missed. Changing one thing at a time allows assessment of one choice. These threads turn into debates all the time around one question. "Do I NEED new shocks when i change springs?". That answer is simply no. If you care to argue that they are a good idea or more desireable, there's no way anyone could shoot that down. Is it a MUST? No. Set aside all your specific opinions and try to imagine the needs of the OP. If he really NEEDS new struts/shocks, he is doing something that demands it, competition, etc. At that point it's a new question. "Do I NEED new shocks or struts to be competitive? be quicker around the track? eliminate understeer on the bumps?" To those questions, I am sure you are better qualified to answer. Your track record says so. What's my record? Years of taming unmanagable street cars. Some were poorly home brewed, some were six figure custom cars out of nationally known shops. All were street cars, asked to do a little bit of everything well. You are right that 98% of buyers agree new struts and shocks are a good investment. What % were headed for the track?
By the way, I never said you were here to push parts. Your signature is unobtrusive and you never promote a purchase in your replies. That honest to a fault, call it as you see it part; That's one thing we have in common.
OP, my apologies for steering this so far off course. I have a strong belief that every debate has potential to enlighten everyone within the blast radius.
I am but one opinion, and many folks have better, more or different experience from mine. I think the upgrades are worth every penny, and I spend my money on premium parts when I spend it. It's not aboout being cheap. To me, it's about compromise. If I don't plan to autocross, drag race or anything more specific that run around the countryside as fast as I dare with my history of citations, then I don't think I NEED the upgraded shocks. Would I like 'em? Sure. Need 'em? No. Have I done it before? Yes. Regrets? No.
Stock suspension is about compromise. They have to make it handle becasue we expect it. They have to make it ride nice because others expect it. It has to manage potholed back country roads and glass smooth freeways. Stock suspension can't be everything, so it compromises. With my needs this is OK. More specialized equipment won't be wrong, it just may not be right as frequently in my use.
I lowered my car. That is the single biggest improvement in handling I can make. It lowered the center of gravity and came with increased spring rates, though not as high as I see in some competition products. I can improve it more. Later.
Just so I am clear, how long should OE struts and shocks last? Any answer having a number of miles is bull****. It DEPENDS on usage, conditions, driving habits, etc. Will it be sooner than with OE springs? Probably.
I have no problem at all with your expertise. I just tire of so many insisting that gradual steps up are insufficient. If I swap all the parts and handling goes to hell, I've changed too many things to be sure where I missed. Changing one thing at a time allows assessment of one choice. These threads turn into debates all the time around one question. "Do I NEED new shocks when i change springs?". That answer is simply no. If you care to argue that they are a good idea or more desireable, there's no way anyone could shoot that down. Is it a MUST? No. Set aside all your specific opinions and try to imagine the needs of the OP. If he really NEEDS new struts/shocks, he is doing something that demands it, competition, etc. At that point it's a new question. "Do I NEED new shocks or struts to be competitive? be quicker around the track? eliminate understeer on the bumps?" To those questions, I am sure you are better qualified to answer. Your track record says so. What's my record? Years of taming unmanagable street cars. Some were poorly home brewed, some were six figure custom cars out of nationally known shops. All were street cars, asked to do a little bit of everything well. You are right that 98% of buyers agree new struts and shocks are a good investment. What % were headed for the track?
By the way, I never said you were here to push parts. Your signature is unobtrusive and you never promote a purchase in your replies. That honest to a fault, call it as you see it part; That's one thing we have in common.
OP, my apologies for steering this so far off course. I have a strong belief that every debate has potential to enlighten everyone within the blast radius.
My job is to do work for folks that will make them happy. The second I recommend what's easy, or cheap, then I get blasted by them for doing it half-assed. So, I'm sorry if I'm a little touchy because I just can't seem to win. I'm literally damned by you for having the ***** to recommend upgrading dampers, and if someone is unhappy with the result of stock dampers then I'm damned by them. The difference is that while someone might be ok with stock stuff for a while, they won't be forever because the stock stuff is borderline at best and goes nothing but downhill. Now, you seem to be ok with doing work twice--or in fact thinking that what you have is perfect despite the fact you've changed other parts of the system. That isn't going to be the case for everyone, "pro" or not. Shocks and struts are SPRING DAMPERS. There are times with the stock springs they are "meant" to go with the damping is more than little sub-par. Somehow then forcing the dampers to work on heavier, shorter springs makes things better? Ok then.
08-10-2011, 09:53 PM
#29
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 80
Do you know where the cambers are at now?
Is your autocross driving a big enough part of the total amount of driving or is your normal driving consistently hard enough to justify cambers that will be something like 0.7° more negative than they are now?
About here it's probably also worth thinking about the upper strut mounts. While I have no idea how many miles are on them or what they've been through, I know they've been removed and reinstalled at least once already. If there's any chance they'll need replacement either now or in the near future, now would be a really good time to consider the Steeda HD's.
From a purely geometric point of view, the axle shouldn't move much at all. But that doesn't seem to agree with some peoples' experience, so maybe there's something going on with the PHB bushings and on whether people commonly loosen and retorque the PHB bolts when they lower the car. Wait and see is the best advice I can give.
Norm
Is your autocross driving a big enough part of the total amount of driving or is your normal driving consistently hard enough to justify cambers that will be something like 0.7° more negative than they are now?
About here it's probably also worth thinking about the upper strut mounts. While I have no idea how many miles are on them or what they've been through, I know they've been removed and reinstalled at least once already. If there's any chance they'll need replacement either now or in the near future, now would be a really good time to consider the Steeda HD's.
From a purely geometric point of view, the axle shouldn't move much at all. But that doesn't seem to agree with some peoples' experience, so maybe there's something going on with the PHB bushings and on whether people commonly loosen and retorque the PHB bolts when they lower the car. Wait and see is the best advice I can give.
Norm
Last edited by stepqhen; 08-10-2011 at 10:03 PM. Reason: because I don't have no good english tonight
08-11-2011, 06:10 AM
#30
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
I think on these cars, mild lowering plus an average-size driver will put the PHB pretty close to dead level as long as you aren't accelerating or braking very hard. Unless you're racing circle track, that's about as good as you can get a PHB (without doing a little custom fabrication and a whole lot of testing, anyway).
There's still going to be a little lateral compliance due to the OE amount of PHB bushing compression, but since your lateral tire deformation is going to be a lot bigger than that you won't notice the PHB bushing effect unless/until you actually do swap to a PHB or a WL that uses stiffer bushing material or rod ends.
Norm
There's still going to be a little lateral compliance due to the OE amount of PHB bushing compression, but since your lateral tire deformation is going to be a lot bigger than that you won't notice the PHB bushing effect unless/until you actually do swap to a PHB or a WL that uses stiffer bushing material or rod ends.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 08-11-2011 at 06:16 AM.