Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?
#111
What I said is that I don't call "MY CAR" anything! It is a Roush build! I simply don't think you should get upset if a owner of a Authorized Roush Shop "major" build includes windshield banners, dash plaques, etc. on his Mustang. Only the very least informed ignorants will think it is a Factory Roush Serial Numbered Car like yours.
If a owner of a "Cloned" '61 Fuel Injected Corvette that is exactly the same in parts, etc. as an "original factory built fuel injected car" says, "I have a "Fuel Injected" Corvette, those that have an original don't have to get their shorts in a knot and say, "No you don't! You have a non original Fuel Injected Corvette that has had all the parts of a Fuel Injected Corvette added to it after it left the factory! To many it is unnecessary snobbery unless the car is being misrepresented to cheat someone!
NCRS Judges cannot tell if the car below is original or not, because it is identical in every way to an original. I would not misrepresent it to those willing to pay four to ten times as much to be able to say this is a documented original fuel injected Corvette. Frankly, I would rather have five identical "clones" than one original for the same investment, but that is everyone's individual choice!
My point is that your car could be called a "Serial Numbered Factory Roush while the other type might be called a "Roush Authorized Shop Build". It acknowleges the quality and Ford/Roush warrantee of a major build from a Roush Authorized Dealer and it separates it from some basically stock Mustang with Roush decals. It is not about demeaning a Factory Roush or saying they are the same. It is much like a "Factory built Shelby" and an after market Shelby Conversion as done by Shelby of Las Vegas! The conversions are often not like a Factory Shelby, but they get a Shelby serial number! When I was at Shelby of Las Vegas one of their builds was around $10K and another was $20K. Obviously they were not the same. The $10K conversion was certainly not based on performance, but it still got the name and serial number!
My car has no Roush looks at all, ....... but it does have Roush performance and I think Jack Roush would be fine with that! I have a video tape of Jack Roush showing a Roush Performance build with Roush Supercharger, exhaust, brakes, and suspension. I doubt Jack Roush would have taken the $15K to $20K for the after market build at a Roush Authorized Shop and then said, "Don't you dare call your car a Roush!" From what I saw on TV, I think he appreciates and supports all Roush builds! He set up his business to promote doing just what I did, as well as buying the Factory Roush you have! Let's not nitpick each others Roush builds! Life's too short! Anyone that thinks a car like mine is a Factory Serial Numbered Roush is completely ignorant about Mustangs in general!
When I see a beautiful woman I absolutely have to verify she's a natural blonde, or obviously I won't be able to ever appreciate her looks! Duh! Somehow that makes sense with cars! Talk about missing the point! Duh! Here's a Clone designated as original by more than quite a few NCRS judges! No, I don't enter it in NCRS shows! When I built it I just made sure it was impossible to differentiate it from an original! Why? Because if you build a clone get every single thing right, or why bother!
Last edited by Mr. D; 03-26-2014 at 03:54 AM.
#112
Cruizin.... I've never said anything to promote my car being greater than a Roush clone - or any other Mustang. I love talking to, interacting with and helping other Mustang lovers who modify their cars.
I have been trying to clarify for others what a REAL Roush is vs an owner/shop build. I have never said one is better than the other - only that they are different when looking at resale value of an authentic vs clone. If you read my old posts, you'll see I LOVE Roush clones/copies etc... I almost bought one. In fact (as I have posted), one of the nicest Mustangs I've ever seen is a 2002 Roush S2 clone.
B's car is the same in my opinion. Yes, it's a super nice car - I even posted that in his thread. But it lacks the core parts of the Roush he's claiming to clone. I point blank asked him about it. It says Roush Stage 3 on it, yet it has none of the core Roush Stage 3 parts. As of right now, it's not even a Stage 1 clone.
You saying it's just as much a Roush as mine is flat out laughable. Other than Roush stickers and little things, it lacks the body, the full suspension, the wheels, the power, the interior....and yes, the serial number.
You saying it's just as much a Roush as mine is flat out laughable. Other than Roush stickers and little things, it lacks the body, the full suspension, the wheels, the power, the interior....and yes, the serial number.
....50 years from now a serialized and documented Roush Mustang and a Mustang with Roush stickers and accessories aren't going to pull the same value. That doesn't mean they aren't cool cars or the owners are bad in any way. It's strickly in regard to value down the road (which is what this thread is about).
I'm not an elitest or a snob of any type. I'm a stickler for FACTS and REALITY. I love that you are calling me names. You guys stick to those personal attacks, as clearly you have no facts to back up your thought process.
You ASSUME I paid extra for my car for a name on it, and try to belittle me for it. Again, you would be WRONG. Stop to consider that I might have less into buying mine than others posting in this thread to create a copy. You also sit here and claim the owner builds are more unqiue than buying one off the lot. Both of my Roush cars have been highly modified by me - making them unique to me as per my personal taste and needs out of the cars. We're all the same in that regard.
I'm not here to call people names or belittle them - and I don't. I'm here to put FACTS out there so people have the correct information. If you get personally offened, so be it. Block me, don't read my information/posts, click the little red X in the corner of the window and move on. I'm glad Mr D is now saying his car is not a real Roush. It is still a nice car and I like it.
Just sayin.
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Last edited by Cruzinaround; 03-26-2014 at 09:09 AM.
#113
If a owner of a "Cloned" '61 Fuel Injected Corvette that is exactly the same in parts, etc. as an "original factory built fuel injected car" says, "I have a "Fuel Injected" Corvette, those that have an original don't have to get their shorts in a knot and say, "No you don't! You have a non original Fuel Injected Corvette that has had all the parts of a Fuel Injected Corvette added to it after it left the factory! To many it is unnecessary snobbery unless the car is being misrepresented to cheat someone!
It is much like a "Factory built Shelby" and an after market Shelby Conversion as done by Shelby of Las Vegas! The conversions are often not like a Factory Shelby, but they get a Shelby serial number! When I was at Shelby of Las Vegas one of their builds was around $10K and another was $20K. Obviously they were not the same. The $10K conversion was certainly not based on performance, but it still got the name and serial number!
Last edited by PNYXPRESS; 03-26-2014 at 10:27 AM.
#114
Saying you have a fuel injected corvette is not like saying you have a " '61 Fuelie", as yes you have a fuel injected corvette. It would be like adding fuel injection to a 1932 ford and saying you have a FI 1932 ford, cause you do. But saying you have a roush/authorized roush build/clone/etc mustang just because you put on a roushcharger is wrong. You have a roushcharged mustang NO MATTER WHO INSTALLED IT.
Or "Yeppers, this is a Roush Modified Mustang". Which it is and the conversation pans out from there.
In fact for the benefit of LilRoush claiming a Roush CAI will void a warranty.... That's not applicable if Ford installs it. And they do install them. Which means... simply put an OEM CAI back on ...take it to a Ford shop and pay them to install it.
There is no such thing as a factory build shelby anymore. They are all conversions and that is the only way to get a true Shelby car. Now, with that said, the Ford built GT500s are recognized in the Shelby registry as a authentic Shelby. But, a TRUE Shelby built/modified car will come with a dash plaque with a serial number. So unless you bought a 06-07 Shelby GTH or 07-08 Shelby GT,or 08-09 GT500KR the only way to get the plaque WITH A SERIAL NUMBER is to send your car "aftermarket" to be converted with either the GT/SC, CS6, CS8, Terlingua, GT350, or GT500 SuperSnake package, or register your FORD built GT500 with them.
I'll again go the the Roush example since he's still alive. Mr. D could have commissioned his own build anyway he liked it..bumped into Jack Roush at any number of events and politely asked him to Autograph his vehicle. And Photograph the event.
In the end what he has is something pretty special. But, that does not necessarilly increase the value of his vehicle. Unless you're a nutty collector that is. ;-)
To Apply this to a Shelby... it would require an autograph of the entire special team on any given day where a win was achieved... with photographic proof to record the event....Boom. again somethng special for some nutty collector.
For Arguement's sake... PNY...If you build your own one off custom and decide to do another one.... Why not slap a serial number on it to track your own builds?
All this amounts to in the real world is a Registry to track the whereabouts of these builds, how many hands they've swapped through and how many years they've survived to provide a baseline of measure to suggest just how few or many there are.
Again for the nutty collectors. The true value is still of course...int the eye of the beholder. Since any current spec vehicle will likely have better more modern amenities and performance. Nostalgia is a really open area for appraisal and one professional opinion will be different from another, therefore subjective from that individual perspective...like collecting Artwork...which is what I like to do. That value is only what you can convince others of. Not everyone gives a crap about a Picasso until they figure out how much they can possibly sell it for. The problem then becomes finding someone willing to buy it for what you're asking.
Authentication helps to sell it. But does it really make it valuable....again that's personal taste and open to interpretation. As a buyer you tend to go with the low averages to maximize your perceived value at very little investment. As a seller you want to go with the higher Averages to Maximize your return from your initial investment.
Again...in the age of Millennials with a lot more common sense and a true sense of value.... The collector Market is really the land of people with more money than brains.
Last edited by Cruzinaround; 03-26-2014 at 12:10 PM.
#115
Symantecs in the vocabulary here PNY.... He can simply say my corvette is setup just like a 61' Fuelie. The conversation pans out from there.
Or "Yeppers, this is a Roush Modified Mustang". Which it is and the conversation pans out from there.
In fact for the benefit of LilRoush claiming a Roush CAI will void a warranty.... That's not applicable if Ford installs it. And they do install them. Which means... simply put an OEM CAI back on ...take it to a Ford shop and pay them to install it.
(LilRoush is right about this issue, but of course if I took my Mustang in for a Ford warrantee it would have the stock airbox on it! The CAI adds some extra HP and requires a separate tune, but is not part of the Ford?Roush agreement. If I'm not abusing my Mustang, I'd be able to sleep just fine if they don't know I run the CAI!)
Again symantecs. You can still find all the available parts and commission whomever you feel is qualified to build it. Whether a Shelby Team or not.
I'll again go the the Roush example since he's still alive. Mr. D could have commissioned his own build anyway he liked it..bumped into Jack Roush at any number of events and politely asked him to Autograph his vehicle. And Photograph the event.
In the end what he has is something pretty special. But, that does not necessarilly increase the value of his vehicle. Unless you're a nutty collector that is. ;-)
To Apply this to a Shelby... it would require an autograph of the entire special team on any given day where a win was achieved... with photographic proof to record the event....Boom. again somethng special for some nutty collector.
For Arguement's sake... PNY...If you build your own one off custom and decide to do another one.... Why not slap a serial number on it to track your own builds?
(Then I'd have a factory serial numbered "Mr. D" Mustang and no one better call their Mustang a "Mr. D" without my serial number plate Right?! LOL!)
All this amounts to in the real world is a Registry to track the whereabouts of these builds, how many hands they've swapped through and how many years they've survived to provide a baseline of measure to suggest just how few or many there are.
Again for the nutty collectors. The true value is still of course...int the eye of the beholder. Since any current spec vehicle will likely have better more modern amenities and performance. Nostalgia is a really open area for appraisal and one professional opinion will be different from another, therefore subjective from that individual perspective...like collecting Artwork...which is what I like to do. That value is only what you can convince others of. Not everyone gives a crap about a Picasso until they figure out how much they can possibly sell it for. The problem then becomes finding someone willing to buy it for what you're asking.
Authentication helps to sell it. But does it really make it valuable....again that's personal taste and open to interpretation. As a buyer you tend to go with the low averages to maximize your perceived value at very little investment. As a seller you want to go with the higher Averages to Maximize your return from your initial investment.
Again...in the age of Millennials with a lot more common sense and a true sense of value.... The collector Market is really the land of people with more money than brains.
Or "Yeppers, this is a Roush Modified Mustang". Which it is and the conversation pans out from there.
In fact for the benefit of LilRoush claiming a Roush CAI will void a warranty.... That's not applicable if Ford installs it. And they do install them. Which means... simply put an OEM CAI back on ...take it to a Ford shop and pay them to install it.
(LilRoush is right about this issue, but of course if I took my Mustang in for a Ford warrantee it would have the stock airbox on it! The CAI adds some extra HP and requires a separate tune, but is not part of the Ford?Roush agreement. If I'm not abusing my Mustang, I'd be able to sleep just fine if they don't know I run the CAI!)
Again symantecs. You can still find all the available parts and commission whomever you feel is qualified to build it. Whether a Shelby Team or not.
I'll again go the the Roush example since he's still alive. Mr. D could have commissioned his own build anyway he liked it..bumped into Jack Roush at any number of events and politely asked him to Autograph his vehicle. And Photograph the event.
In the end what he has is something pretty special. But, that does not necessarilly increase the value of his vehicle. Unless you're a nutty collector that is. ;-)
To Apply this to a Shelby... it would require an autograph of the entire special team on any given day where a win was achieved... with photographic proof to record the event....Boom. again somethng special for some nutty collector.
For Arguement's sake... PNY...If you build your own one off custom and decide to do another one.... Why not slap a serial number on it to track your own builds?
(Then I'd have a factory serial numbered "Mr. D" Mustang and no one better call their Mustang a "Mr. D" without my serial number plate Right?! LOL!)
All this amounts to in the real world is a Registry to track the whereabouts of these builds, how many hands they've swapped through and how many years they've survived to provide a baseline of measure to suggest just how few or many there are.
Again for the nutty collectors. The true value is still of course...int the eye of the beholder. Since any current spec vehicle will likely have better more modern amenities and performance. Nostalgia is a really open area for appraisal and one professional opinion will be different from another, therefore subjective from that individual perspective...like collecting Artwork...which is what I like to do. That value is only what you can convince others of. Not everyone gives a crap about a Picasso until they figure out how much they can possibly sell it for. The problem then becomes finding someone willing to buy it for what you're asking.
Authentication helps to sell it. But does it really make it valuable....again that's personal taste and open to interpretation. As a buyer you tend to go with the low averages to maximize your perceived value at very little investment. As a seller you want to go with the higher Averages to Maximize your return from your initial investment.
Again...in the age of Millennials with a lot more common sense and a true sense of value.... The collector Market is really the land of people with more money than brains.
Question: What differences are there between a GT and a GT Premium? I know about: radio, Bluetooth, cloth seats...... but what other differences are there?
I'm thinking about getting a regular GT with "Recaro Cloth seats since I don't care about Bluetooth and Sirius Radio in this car! Downsides????
Hey.............. Anyone have a picture of Recaro Cloth seats??????
Last edited by Mr. D; 03-27-2014 at 04:23 AM.
#116
I have three reasons for having a Mustang built at a Roush Authorized Dealer rather than buying a finished customized Roush, Shelby, Saleen or whatever that is solely based only on my personal taste because they are all great cars:
1. No dealer in my area will sell a GT 500 under full list price! Someone will always pay the full price! Who can blame them for making more money? Since I don't want GT 500 suspension and would likely change it for around town ride. I'd rather get a major discount on a GT and do a 575 HP 5.0L Coyote Roush supercharger build, with big brakes and Bilstein shocks. (Calif. Approved)
2. Since I'm getting old (71) and my wife likes to heavy foot my cars, I think next time I want an automatic at 575 HP! More relaxing for old folks in traffic .......... they still roll along pretty quickly from 0 to 70!
3. I love the Ford styling of a regular GT like this one below
1. No dealer in my area will sell a GT 500 under full list price! Someone will always pay the full price! Who can blame them for making more money? Since I don't want GT 500 suspension and would likely change it for around town ride. I'd rather get a major discount on a GT and do a 575 HP 5.0L Coyote Roush supercharger build, with big brakes and Bilstein shocks. (Calif. Approved)
2. Since I'm getting old (71) and my wife likes to heavy foot my cars, I think next time I want an automatic at 575 HP! More relaxing for old folks in traffic .......... they still roll along pretty quickly from 0 to 70!
3. I love the Ford styling of a regular GT like this one below
Last edited by Mr. D; 03-27-2014 at 05:09 AM.
#117
FAIL!
Neither of those is a regular GT
The first one if the GT500 and the second is using the mustang customizer combining the GT/GTCS bumper/pp v6 grill/v6 hood/GT500 stripes
Neither of those is a regular GT
The first one if the GT500 and the second is using the mustang customizer combining the GT/GTCS bumper/pp v6 grill/v6 hood/GT500 stripes
Last edited by PNYXPRESS; 03-27-2014 at 07:50 AM.
#118
http://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-a-m...oks-1552074641
Here's a Link to an interesting find.... 1969 Mint condition GT 500 with 8,500 original miles and all supporting manuals.
The owner died with no family to inherit any of his items. Now to be sold in auction for the highest bid. The expectations are to exceed 100k.
The original price $5245.00 USD.
If you ask me .... Not worth 100k. Just from a value perspective.... The vehicle is not up to par with today 's standards in every category. And if I attempt to make it so... I've then altered it and once again devalued it. So from a practical perspective it's a POS from yesteryear that I would need to maintain and can't really enjoy.
In a nutshell it's worthless to me. And according to the original invoice... It's value is $5k. It's used and old. Yep. This would be a case where one of Mr. D's 1969 GT 500 clones would likely be a better car with modern spec parts and performance.
So the two modern cars Mr. D gave as Examples are far better in every way. Are safe and can perform. Thus fun to drive. And don't need to be kept in constant form to maintain a value only a nutty collector would see.
PNY. This is what is meant by subjective. You have a value based on nostalgia and rarity, but the value in the actual item....isn't really there. Thus fodder for collector's with more Money than brains. Even Mr. D's vision of what is ideal.... Is not a major fail. It's just his vision and can be enjoyed more than just a wax job and maybe a careful drive around the block to maintain the "mint" factor.
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Here's a Link to an interesting find.... 1969 Mint condition GT 500 with 8,500 original miles and all supporting manuals.
The owner died with no family to inherit any of his items. Now to be sold in auction for the highest bid. The expectations are to exceed 100k.
The original price $5245.00 USD.
If you ask me .... Not worth 100k. Just from a value perspective.... The vehicle is not up to par with today 's standards in every category. And if I attempt to make it so... I've then altered it and once again devalued it. So from a practical perspective it's a POS from yesteryear that I would need to maintain and can't really enjoy.
In a nutshell it's worthless to me. And according to the original invoice... It's value is $5k. It's used and old. Yep. This would be a case where one of Mr. D's 1969 GT 500 clones would likely be a better car with modern spec parts and performance.
So the two modern cars Mr. D gave as Examples are far better in every way. Are safe and can perform. Thus fun to drive. And don't need to be kept in constant form to maintain a value only a nutty collector would see.
PNY. This is what is meant by subjective. You have a value based on nostalgia and rarity, but the value in the actual item....isn't really there. Thus fodder for collector's with more Money than brains. Even Mr. D's vision of what is ideal.... Is not a major fail. It's just his vision and can be enjoyed more than just a wax job and maybe a careful drive around the block to maintain the "mint" factor.
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Last edited by Cruzinaround; 03-27-2014 at 05:47 PM.
#119
In a nutshell it's worthless to me. And according to the original invoice... It's value is $5k. It's used and old. Yep. This would be a case where one of Mr. D's 1969 GT 500 clones would likely be a better car with modern spec parts and performance.
So the two modern cars Mr. D gave as Examples are far better in every way.
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#120
In fact as a measure of true value the clone is actually a better investment with modern specs than an all original. Again...the Original car devalues with any improvements. Yet some nutty collector will "FEEL' for nostalgic reasons that an old POS is worth 100K.
Ironic isn't it.
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