Dyno disappointment?
09-08-2009, 03:44 PM
#41
6th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
If there was a tuner around here I would go get a dyno tune for the car. I'm guessing that might help iron this out. But since I live in the middle of ****ing noowhere it's really not an option. I'm not going to get a dyno tune until I get a blower. Just not worth the 1-2 day drive.
09-08-2009, 04:40 PM
#42
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,062
Depending on the type of blower you are getting, you could potentially do the delete plates now and gain a little power. I have the stock plates and I can feel them open with the Vortech. When I get on it, at around 3500rpm or whatever they're set at, can't recall now, there is a slight hesitation for a fraction of a second. Once I verified with Brenspeed that this is what I was feeling, I just blew it off. Not worth my time...
09-08-2009, 07:31 PM
#44
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,062
If you're going for that much power, I'd forge it, then go turbo or a twin screw. The centris make the most sense when you want to get the job done for a good price IMO. At the time I just wasn't willing to put $8000-10,000 into the car to make all that power. I'm still not. As it is I should have just bought a GT500. If I had put another say, $4000 in, I'd REALLY be feeling like I did the wrong thing. At least as it stands now, the car is pretty fast and still is quite a bit less than a GT500 would have been. With the prices on the used GT500's these days, some of these pricey twin screw packages like the Techco leave me scratching my head.
Last edited by Mudflap; 09-08-2009 at 07:37 PM.
09-08-2009, 08:52 PM
#45
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 265
I just don't think there is any substitute for a real dyno tune done for the specific car. I am sure that those mail order tunes are a major improvement but I just don't see how they can compare to a tune done by a tech based on dyno pulls for your specific car.
The guy who tuned my car did a total of 5 pulls after he did an initial tune and gained almost 20 Hp. I started with 265+ RWHP and ended with 283.7 RWHP and 297+ torq. I only have a K&N CAI and FRPP shorty headers, no pullies or delete plates, cams etc. It does have an Automatic transmission, 18 x 285/35 rear tires, 4:10 gears.
The guy who tuned my car did a total of 5 pulls after he did an initial tune and gained almost 20 Hp. I started with 265+ RWHP and ended with 283.7 RWHP and 297+ torq. I only have a K&N CAI and FRPP shorty headers, no pullies or delete plates, cams etc. It does have an Automatic transmission, 18 x 285/35 rear tires, 4:10 gears.
09-08-2009, 09:07 PM
#46
6th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
I don't want to go forged, at least not right away anyway. I'm going to run 9 pounds or less of boost. If that won't get me to 450whp alone then I'm hoping a couple supporting mods might make the difference. Driveshaft, headers, that sorta thing.. If I do stick with a centri I will definitely do the intercooled model.
Brenspeed got back to me. Here's the text of their message. I am trying to get the datalog my friend took a week or so ago. It's not from the dyno pull but was done only days before that and in similar weather with the same fuel.
The dyno result I have is already SAE adjusted AFAIK so I'm not sure the environmental questions they are asking would even be pertinent here.
Brenspeed got back to me. Here's the text of their message. I am trying to get the datalog my friend took a week or so ago. It's not from the dyno pull but was done only days before that and in similar weather with the same fuel.
Originally Posted by brenspeed
Hi Owen do you know how to data log the car? Do you know what your environment inside the cell was like (temperature of the air, and the engine coolant?)
Out of the 1000’s of S197’s on our dyno we have seen before cars that we call low producers. From the factory they may only make say 245 rwhp, then you get some that have made as much as 279 rwhp stock. We can not explain the factory variances in the cars.
Also yes the tires and gears will kill you on the dyno as well. The lower rear gear you run the lower the numbers will come out as, and the heavier the wheel the lower the numbers will come out as.
So if I only dyno’d say 30 S197’s I might say it is low, but based off the volume of cars we have seen on the dyno and tested yours is not the lowest, but does fall into the low producer from the factory category. Not to mention the low gears, heavy wheels, and possibly ambient and engine temps hurting you.
2 things make wide open power for the most part. Air fuel and timing for the most part. All of our 93 tunes run pretty much the same timing and air fuel is pre-set. So the final numbers are varied by things like the cars stock power, temperature of the engine and outside, and also knock sensors.
We let your knock sensors add or remove timing as they see fit. If they heard noise or did not like the temps they can pull timing which will affect final numbers as well.
Out of the 1000’s of S197’s on our dyno we have seen before cars that we call low producers. From the factory they may only make say 245 rwhp, then you get some that have made as much as 279 rwhp stock. We can not explain the factory variances in the cars.
Also yes the tires and gears will kill you on the dyno as well. The lower rear gear you run the lower the numbers will come out as, and the heavier the wheel the lower the numbers will come out as.
So if I only dyno’d say 30 S197’s I might say it is low, but based off the volume of cars we have seen on the dyno and tested yours is not the lowest, but does fall into the low producer from the factory category. Not to mention the low gears, heavy wheels, and possibly ambient and engine temps hurting you.
2 things make wide open power for the most part. Air fuel and timing for the most part. All of our 93 tunes run pretty much the same timing and air fuel is pre-set. So the final numbers are varied by things like the cars stock power, temperature of the engine and outside, and also knock sensors.
We let your knock sensors add or remove timing as they see fit. If they heard noise or did not like the temps they can pull timing which will affect final numbers as well.
09-08-2009, 09:12 PM
#47
Is the tide gonna reach my chair?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nor'east
Posts: 4,389
Mishri and I took our cars to the dyno and did a couple pulls each. His results were pretty good and mine left me wondering why my car seems so weak. Here are the critical differences between the two cars, and I will post the charts at the end.
Mishri - 4.10 FRPP, Steeda CMDP/UDP/CAI, Brenspeed 93 Tune, Auto Tranny
Riptide - 4.10 FRPP, JLT Intake, Brenspeed 93 Tune, Manual Tranny
Mishri runs 17x8 stock bullits with the pirelli 235/55/R17.
Riptide runs 18x10 DD bullits with Nitto NT05 295/45/R18.
Mishri's results: 285.7 whp, 304.4 wtq
Riptide's results: 265.8 whp, 275.0 wtq
Yeah Mishri has some power mods but I have a manual transmission which should mean less drivetrain loss. The pulleys and plates aren't known for huge gains.
Are my larger rims and tires really going to make THAT huge of a difference here? What gives?
SAE corrected results/charts. 4th gear pulls to 6500rpm.
Mishri:
Riptide:
*Apologies for the colors. I didn't have a red pen handy. Blue is hp, black is tq.
If you're having trouble reading them, here is a link to the (huge) unedited images.
Riptide: http://tinypic.com/r/15qx83b/3
Mishri: http://tinypic.com/r/10zq0qg/3
Mishri - 4.10 FRPP, Steeda CMDP/UDP/CAI, Brenspeed 93 Tune, Auto Tranny
Riptide - 4.10 FRPP, JLT Intake, Brenspeed 93 Tune, Manual Tranny
Mishri runs 17x8 stock bullits with the pirelli 235/55/R17.
Riptide runs 18x10 DD bullits with Nitto NT05 295/45/R18.
Mishri's results: 285.7 whp, 304.4 wtq
Riptide's results: 265.8 whp, 275.0 wtq
Yeah Mishri has some power mods but I have a manual transmission which should mean less drivetrain loss. The pulleys and plates aren't known for huge gains.
Are my larger rims and tires really going to make THAT huge of a difference here? What gives?
SAE corrected results/charts. 4th gear pulls to 6500rpm.
Mishri:
Riptide:
*Apologies for the colors. I didn't have a red pen handy. Blue is hp, black is tq.
If you're having trouble reading them, here is a link to the (huge) unedited images.
Riptide: http://tinypic.com/r/15qx83b/3
Mishri: http://tinypic.com/r/10zq0qg/3
09-09-2009, 04:57 PM
#48
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 462
Wow, I didn't realize you were so insecure about your power, Rip.. haha.. j/k
Just something to prod you toward a supercharger: I made 440 rwhp and 401 rwtq on 8.5 psi boost at the International Mustang Show, and by the way it was only $30 to dyno there.. ($10 per run afterwards).. you should have brought your car down..
The elevation here does make a difference despite the "SAE correction".. It doesn't matter any way you look at it though, it's just a number and you can make it look however you want.. You can sit here and say you are at 3400 ft but the air density could be anywhere from 2500- 6500 feet here depending on the weather. The dyno is just a tool to get the most out of your tune and mods.
If you are that concerned, call Brett and have him do a tune for you.
Let's try to put your mind at ease a little. First, Mishri's pull had that big spike in it that threw his peak hp off, so your total power isn't that much different. Second, your wheels are heavier, so you lose a little there. Third, it is pretty commonly accepted that the 5 speed manual loses about 15% through the drivetrain on 17 inch wheels and the factory driveshaft, while the auto loses about 18%. All told, you two should pretty much make the same power at the wheels based on drivetrain because of your wheels, but he has pullies and cmdp's, so he should have slightly more power.
BTW, unless he had a lock put on his trans to keep it in 4th during that pull, I am betting the spikes are shifts, which skew the results.. you have a manual so you had a nice smooth pull all the way up.. he was in 2 different gears so the computer averaged the power at each RPM and that is why his graph is way goofy..
You want to see who has more power? Get them to plug in and tune in a lock so he stays in 4th on his pull.. Then make sure you are both at the same ambient temp and humidity, as well as AD, and that both your vehicles are at the same operating temp. Only then will you be able to say 100% who has more power to the wheels. At the show, people were pulling 30 hp difference from morning to afternoon, in a span of about 3 hours time..
BTW, I would be happy to take you for a ride if you want to see what the supercharger does to wake these cars up.. just ask next time you see me.. I will be at Hardees tomorrow night and later this month at the mustang club meeting..
Oh here is my dyno log:
Just something to prod you toward a supercharger: I made 440 rwhp and 401 rwtq on 8.5 psi boost at the International Mustang Show, and by the way it was only $30 to dyno there.. ($10 per run afterwards).. you should have brought your car down..
The elevation here does make a difference despite the "SAE correction".. It doesn't matter any way you look at it though, it's just a number and you can make it look however you want.. You can sit here and say you are at 3400 ft but the air density could be anywhere from 2500- 6500 feet here depending on the weather. The dyno is just a tool to get the most out of your tune and mods.
If you are that concerned, call Brett and have him do a tune for you.
Let's try to put your mind at ease a little. First, Mishri's pull had that big spike in it that threw his peak hp off, so your total power isn't that much different. Second, your wheels are heavier, so you lose a little there. Third, it is pretty commonly accepted that the 5 speed manual loses about 15% through the drivetrain on 17 inch wheels and the factory driveshaft, while the auto loses about 18%. All told, you two should pretty much make the same power at the wheels based on drivetrain because of your wheels, but he has pullies and cmdp's, so he should have slightly more power.
BTW, unless he had a lock put on his trans to keep it in 4th during that pull, I am betting the spikes are shifts, which skew the results.. you have a manual so you had a nice smooth pull all the way up.. he was in 2 different gears so the computer averaged the power at each RPM and that is why his graph is way goofy..
You want to see who has more power? Get them to plug in and tune in a lock so he stays in 4th on his pull.. Then make sure you are both at the same ambient temp and humidity, as well as AD, and that both your vehicles are at the same operating temp. Only then will you be able to say 100% who has more power to the wheels. At the show, people were pulling 30 hp difference from morning to afternoon, in a span of about 3 hours time..
BTW, I would be happy to take you for a ride if you want to see what the supercharger does to wake these cars up.. just ask next time you see me.. I will be at Hardees tomorrow night and later this month at the mustang club meeting..
Oh here is my dyno log:
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