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Old 06-13-2009, 10:55 AM
  #41  
candymanjl
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Originally Posted by nineinchnail1024
My experience has been that headers only show significant gains when the car is not already tuned to maximum potential before the headers were installed. The stock manifolds flow amazingly well, but if you plan on big boost (the kind that only forged internals can handle), then LTs will begin to show gains.
that's a great point. all the magazine reviews I've seen put the parts on then tune vs. tuning first to see what's the most you can get out of it stock.

and like you said, I'm sure at some point you will gain substantial power with exhaust mods, but you're beyond the limits of the stock motor before you get to that point.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:26 PM
  #42  
dkersten
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Originally Posted by nineinchnail1024
I am a big fan of Kenne Bell, but their PR people are PR people, and I take issue with outright false statements. From the PDF you linked:

"A billet supercharger without heat soaked fins to "trap" the heat dissapates the heat more efficiently and quickly. So it, of course, FEELS HOTTER to the touch. That is a good thing. It is transfering more heat OUT of the supercharger case into the atmosphere. Would you prefer a supercharger that retains more heat for your engine to inhale?"

That is PR spin at its worst. Anyone who has taken 2nd grade science can break it down thusly:
If I am not mistaken, this was a quote from Jim Bell, the one who engineered the supercharger.. I think his science level is above 2nd grade, but perhaps they are teaching "supercharger engineering 101" in 3rd grade now.. I dunno, I haven't been in school for 20 years, things might have changed.. (just teasing, sorry).

Originally Posted by nineinchnail1024
"A billet supercharger without heat soaked fins to "trap" the heat dissapates the heat more efficiently and quickly."
-A larger surface area will always dissipate heat more efficiently. There are no exceptions to this rule. The fins that you see on supercharger housings are there because they serve their purpose. KB's CNC machined billet looks damn good, but it can't dissipate heat as efficiently as a system with more surface area on its housing.
True that the more surface area, the more heat exchange. However, Jim's point was that the engine compartment is usually around 170 degrees, pretty close to the temp of the engine (mostly 160-200 at the track since they don't heat soak their engines like a daily driver would), and much warmer than the temp of the intercooler and manifold. You can't dissipate heat if the heat sink is in an environment that is the same or hotter temp than what you are trying to dissipate. PLUS, he was talking about how extruded billet aluminum is more efficient at dissipating heat than cast aluminum.. I don't know the exact difference in heat conductivity, but I imagine that an engineer would, and while I personally think the larger surface area of the whipple probably nets a slightly higher overall conductivity, you always fall back to the first point, which is that the ambient air around the supercharger is quite possibly warmer than the core of the supercharger, doing exactly the opposite of what you want. And yes, the warmer the heat sink to the touch, the more effectively it's doing it's job, which is to pull heat from whatever it is attached to. The question isn't what the heat sink temperature is, it's what the rotor temp is, and more important, the temp of the intercooler fins.

Originally Posted by nineinchnail1024
"So it, of course, FEELS HOTTER to the touch."
-Because it IS hotter. Think of it this way. You have two similar frying pans. One of them is made of cast iron, and the other is stainless. You heat them up to equal temperatures and turn off the fire. After three minutes, you put one hand on each frying pan. The stainless pan has cooled significantly, while the iron pan burns the hell out of you. Would you logically believe that it is because the stainless pan is retaining more heat, preventing it from FEELING HOT, or would you logically believe that it is because the iron pan has retained much more heat? I'll give you a hint, there's only one correct answer.
So by that logic, the burner on the stove is the heat source, the rotors in the supercharger are the equivalent, so your analogy only works AFTER the heat sources is cooled completely. My analogy here would be to put both pans on the bottom burner of an oven, and after a few minutes, open the oven and feel both pans. The hotter one absorbed more heat from the burner, effectively doing it's job better. Over time, once the heat source has cooled and the ambient temperature around the heat sink has also cooled to match the temp of the heat source, whichever one is warmer is the least efficient for dissipating heat. You have to consider that there are two factors here, the casing of the supercharger is pulling heat from one source and trying to dissipate it to another. You are only considering one or the other, not both at the same time. The hotter the heat sink, the more energy it has pulled from it's surroundings, which is it's job.

Originally Posted by nineinchnail1024
"It is transfering more heat OUT of the supercharger case into the atmosphere."
-Back to the frying pan example. Either KB has a really uneducated PR department, or they are trying to put a positive spin on one of the only negative aspects of an otherwise excellent system. I don't like it when advertising is disingenuous, and this most certainly is.

"Would you prefer a supercharger that retains more heat for your engine to inhale?"
-I would definitely prefer a supercharger that does NOT, which is why I chose the whipple.

I'm not trying to beat up on the KB. It IS an excellent system for an excellent price, but every system has its issues. To try and cover them up or pretend that they don't exist is morally reprehensible. I've seen many supercharged S197s at the track, and the KBs are consistently more subject to heat soak than other applications. I also have a problem with KB insinuating that other manufacturers use substandard materials for their rotor housing. I'm yet to see a supercharger failure due to poorly constructed rotor housing, but if it has happened, I'll eat crow on that point without complaining.

Please don't think I'm trying to start a flame war. I've installed KB kits, I've got friends who run KB kits, and I truly like the kit myself. I'm just turned off by the PR spin from the KB camp.
Almost everything you read on the KB site was written by Jim Bell, not a PR person. I am no engineer, I only studied physics for 3 years before I dropped out of college, but I do know a thing or two about thermodynamics, and they hardly leave out information or cover anything up. This is not to say that they have the most efficient system out there, just that they decided to go a different direction. Every manufacturer is going to point out the good stuff in their product, and downplay the stuff that the competitor does different or better. The thing I LIKE about Kenne Bell is they not only have a reason for everything they do, they explain their reasoning on their website. Just because you don't agree with their reasoning, doesn't make them more or less correct.

Look at it this way: Take two people that buy identical S197's. They both customize the heck out of their cars, and each takes a different route. One guy puts better quality materials into his car, but does all the labor himself. The other guy goes with more common materials, but has a shop do the labor. In the end they both spent the same amount of money within a small margin, and they both run the same at the track, so which one is better? The answer is, it's all in how you judge it.
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