Interesting article on oil consumption
06-07-2006, 10:19 PM
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Interesting article on oil consumption
If anyone cares, here's an interesting article on oil consumption. Although it relates directly to the Caddy Northstar, it should have relevance to our cars as well.
Northstar Oil Consumption (check this discussion for references): (back to the top)
It is not unusual for a Northstar to use more oil than some other engines. It is a high performance engine and has to allow a little more oil to the top rings for lube as as well as down the 32 valve guides.
Design intent for oil consumption would put the engine at about 4000 miles per quart consumption but due to the variables in production parameters there are engines that will use 1 quart per 1000-1500 miles.... perfectly normal and acceptable... but more oil consumption than "intended". Nothing will be wrong with the engine but the continuous oil adds are aggravating. If this is the case then understand that the engine is probably going to run a long long time like that as the cylinder walls , rings, valve guides, etc. like all that oil that you are putting in and the continuous oil adds fortify the used oil in the sump and replenish the additive package in the oil that is slowly depleted under normal usage.
Comparing the 4.9 to the Northstar is an apples to oranges deal. The 4.9 is an excellent engine for it's purpose but does not offer nearly the performance, durability, fuel economy and emission control capability of the Northstar. The Northstar is a high output engine and likes to be "used".
The best way to minimize oil consumption in a Northstar is to keep the sump filled slightly low (many are continuously overfilled) by only checking the oil level when hot and only filling the sump with 7 quarts of oil (7.5 with a dry filter at a change.) A typical 8 quart fill at a change is "required" to put the oil level on the full mark when cold but is actually overfilling the crankcase promoting oil consumption.
Use conventional mineral oil (synthetic is not required at all) as it tends to provide better oil consumption.
An last, but not least, air the engine out frequently. It likes to be used and red-line upshifts at WOT help promote clean combustion chambers, exercise the piston rings to keep them free of carbon buildup and keep them mobile and to ensure the engine is broken in and maximum sealing is obtained. The Northstar does not like to be babied around. It likes to be run hard frequently with a WOT blast in merging or whatever.... Even engines reported to use 1 quart per 1500 miles tend to improve to 2500 miles per quart or better when subjected to a regular schedule of use and "abuse"...
----------
The subject of oil consumption really does not have a "final" answer. The fact is that there is some variability in oil consumption in all production engines.... regardless of who makes them on which continent. All the manufacturers recognize this and virtually all of them will call oil consumption as great as 1 quart in 1000 miles "normal" "acceptable" "allowable" "within production tolerances" etc... This doesn't mean that all engines will get 1000 MPQ or that the engine was designed to get 1000 MPQ...it just recognizes the fact that there are going to be some engines that get 1000 MPQ that will be perfectly fine upon disassembly and will have nothing "wrong" with them.
The variables that usually enter into oil consumption are primarily associated with the piston/ring/cylinder bore. The number of valves or type of valve actuation has little to do with it.
The single biggest variable and the one that has been discussed at great length on this forum is the cylinder bore finish or the cylinder honing pattern. The higher performance the engine is the more attention must be paid to the honing pattern and retention of oil on the cylinder walls to lubricate the piston and rings at full load , high RPM operation. The Northstar engine uses a very aggressive cylinder bore finish that tends to retain a lot of oil to protect the piston and rings. When the blocks are honed at the factory there is a tolerance in the bore finish due to the fact that the honing stones will wear and need replacement. A brand new stone gives a slightly more aggressive pattern than a "used" stone....so a block honed with new stones will have a more aggressive finish and most likely will use more oil.
Another variable is bore roundness. Like it or not, the bores tend to "move" slightly as the engine heats up and cools down and bolt tensions relax, etc. over time. All this contributes to slight bore out of roundness that is not bad or good...just different.
Carbon buildup in the rings and ring sealing are also variables that come into play with break in, operating schedule, type of oil used, etc.
The one thing that I can attest to is that many, many customer oil consumption complaint engines have been torn down with absolutely nothing wrong found. The engines are often reassembled and put into test cars and driven by the engineers and more often than not the high oil consumption does not repeat itself !!! The single biggest common cause seems to be breakin...or lack there of. Many, many oil consuming NOrthstar engines are "fixed" by some full throttle operation. I often joke about "driving it like you stole it" but it really is no joke. The Northstar engine was designed as a high performance engine to be run hard and fast. Those that are run hard typically exhibit excellent ring seal, little carbon build up and good oil economy. We have seen engines with tens of thousands of miles on them that the rings have not sealed or mated to the sides of the ring grooves because the operating schedule was so light duty. The moral here is to flog it .... often.
In any case, the nice thing about the engines with the more aggressive honing pattern is that the pistons, rings and bores will last forever. It is very common to tear down a 200,000 mile Northstar engine and still see the original honing pattern in the cylinders. There is never any sign of cylinder wall wear and the idea of a wear "ridge" at the top of the cylinder bore is something that is laughable on a Northstar.
The other nice thing about a little oil consumption is that it adds tremendous safety factor to the oil change interval. Nothing could be better for the engine than an occasional quart of fresh oil. You can take the worst oil on the market and add a fresh quart every 1000 miles and over the life of the engine the wear will be better than an engine run on the best oil with no adds between changes.
While no one in the engineering community wants high oil consumption the fact is that there is some variability in the oil consumption of an engine manufactured at the rate of 1200 per day. The specs of what is "normal" simply reflects this...it does not imply that all engines would get this or that something is wrong with and engine that gets more or less oil consumption.
There have been a lot of engineering changes over the years on the Northstar aimed at reducing the overall oil consumption and reducing the variability in the oil consumption of different engines. Many changes have been made to the honing process to make it more consistent. Changes to the piston and ring groove treatment have been made to make it more resistant to wear, pound out and micro welding at low oil retention rates. Regardless, there is still some variability.
One other thing that affects oil consumption, or the customers perception of oil consumption, is the move toward longer and longer change intervals. With the allowable change interval reaching as high as 12,500 miles on a 2003 Northstar if the oil life monitor is followed this could mean the addition of 3,4 or 5 quarts of oil to a very healthy engine. If the owner changes their oil every 2000 or 3000 miles, despite the oil life monitor recommendations, then they would not have to add any oil between changes. The oil consumption is the same....the amount
Northstar Oil Consumption (check this discussion for references): (back to the top)
It is not unusual for a Northstar to use more oil than some other engines. It is a high performance engine and has to allow a little more oil to the top rings for lube as as well as down the 32 valve guides.
Design intent for oil consumption would put the engine at about 4000 miles per quart consumption but due to the variables in production parameters there are engines that will use 1 quart per 1000-1500 miles.... perfectly normal and acceptable... but more oil consumption than "intended". Nothing will be wrong with the engine but the continuous oil adds are aggravating. If this is the case then understand that the engine is probably going to run a long long time like that as the cylinder walls , rings, valve guides, etc. like all that oil that you are putting in and the continuous oil adds fortify the used oil in the sump and replenish the additive package in the oil that is slowly depleted under normal usage.
Comparing the 4.9 to the Northstar is an apples to oranges deal. The 4.9 is an excellent engine for it's purpose but does not offer nearly the performance, durability, fuel economy and emission control capability of the Northstar. The Northstar is a high output engine and likes to be "used".
The best way to minimize oil consumption in a Northstar is to keep the sump filled slightly low (many are continuously overfilled) by only checking the oil level when hot and only filling the sump with 7 quarts of oil (7.5 with a dry filter at a change.) A typical 8 quart fill at a change is "required" to put the oil level on the full mark when cold but is actually overfilling the crankcase promoting oil consumption.
Use conventional mineral oil (synthetic is not required at all) as it tends to provide better oil consumption.
An last, but not least, air the engine out frequently. It likes to be used and red-line upshifts at WOT help promote clean combustion chambers, exercise the piston rings to keep them free of carbon buildup and keep them mobile and to ensure the engine is broken in and maximum sealing is obtained. The Northstar does not like to be babied around. It likes to be run hard frequently with a WOT blast in merging or whatever.... Even engines reported to use 1 quart per 1500 miles tend to improve to 2500 miles per quart or better when subjected to a regular schedule of use and "abuse"...
----------
The subject of oil consumption really does not have a "final" answer. The fact is that there is some variability in oil consumption in all production engines.... regardless of who makes them on which continent. All the manufacturers recognize this and virtually all of them will call oil consumption as great as 1 quart in 1000 miles "normal" "acceptable" "allowable" "within production tolerances" etc... This doesn't mean that all engines will get 1000 MPQ or that the engine was designed to get 1000 MPQ...it just recognizes the fact that there are going to be some engines that get 1000 MPQ that will be perfectly fine upon disassembly and will have nothing "wrong" with them.
The variables that usually enter into oil consumption are primarily associated with the piston/ring/cylinder bore. The number of valves or type of valve actuation has little to do with it.
The single biggest variable and the one that has been discussed at great length on this forum is the cylinder bore finish or the cylinder honing pattern. The higher performance the engine is the more attention must be paid to the honing pattern and retention of oil on the cylinder walls to lubricate the piston and rings at full load , high RPM operation. The Northstar engine uses a very aggressive cylinder bore finish that tends to retain a lot of oil to protect the piston and rings. When the blocks are honed at the factory there is a tolerance in the bore finish due to the fact that the honing stones will wear and need replacement. A brand new stone gives a slightly more aggressive pattern than a "used" stone....so a block honed with new stones will have a more aggressive finish and most likely will use more oil.
Another variable is bore roundness. Like it or not, the bores tend to "move" slightly as the engine heats up and cools down and bolt tensions relax, etc. over time. All this contributes to slight bore out of roundness that is not bad or good...just different.
Carbon buildup in the rings and ring sealing are also variables that come into play with break in, operating schedule, type of oil used, etc.
The one thing that I can attest to is that many, many customer oil consumption complaint engines have been torn down with absolutely nothing wrong found. The engines are often reassembled and put into test cars and driven by the engineers and more often than not the high oil consumption does not repeat itself !!! The single biggest common cause seems to be breakin...or lack there of. Many, many oil consuming NOrthstar engines are "fixed" by some full throttle operation. I often joke about "driving it like you stole it" but it really is no joke. The Northstar engine was designed as a high performance engine to be run hard and fast. Those that are run hard typically exhibit excellent ring seal, little carbon build up and good oil economy. We have seen engines with tens of thousands of miles on them that the rings have not sealed or mated to the sides of the ring grooves because the operating schedule was so light duty. The moral here is to flog it .... often.
In any case, the nice thing about the engines with the more aggressive honing pattern is that the pistons, rings and bores will last forever. It is very common to tear down a 200,000 mile Northstar engine and still see the original honing pattern in the cylinders. There is never any sign of cylinder wall wear and the idea of a wear "ridge" at the top of the cylinder bore is something that is laughable on a Northstar.
The other nice thing about a little oil consumption is that it adds tremendous safety factor to the oil change interval. Nothing could be better for the engine than an occasional quart of fresh oil. You can take the worst oil on the market and add a fresh quart every 1000 miles and over the life of the engine the wear will be better than an engine run on the best oil with no adds between changes.
While no one in the engineering community wants high oil consumption the fact is that there is some variability in the oil consumption of an engine manufactured at the rate of 1200 per day. The specs of what is "normal" simply reflects this...it does not imply that all engines would get this or that something is wrong with and engine that gets more or less oil consumption.
There have been a lot of engineering changes over the years on the Northstar aimed at reducing the overall oil consumption and reducing the variability in the oil consumption of different engines. Many changes have been made to the honing process to make it more consistent. Changes to the piston and ring groove treatment have been made to make it more resistant to wear, pound out and micro welding at low oil retention rates. Regardless, there is still some variability.
One other thing that affects oil consumption, or the customers perception of oil consumption, is the move toward longer and longer change intervals. With the allowable change interval reaching as high as 12,500 miles on a 2003 Northstar if the oil life monitor is followed this could mean the addition of 3,4 or 5 quarts of oil to a very healthy engine. If the owner changes their oil every 2000 or 3000 miles, despite the oil life monitor recommendations, then they would not have to add any oil between changes. The oil consumption is the same....the amount
06-08-2006, 03:12 PM
#4
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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RE: Interesting article on oil consumption
ORIGINAL: Twister
it is within Ford specs for a pushrod engine to consume 1 quart every 1500 miles
it is within Ford specs for a pushrod engine to consume 1 quart every 1500 miles
06-08-2006, 03:43 PM
#5
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: THE AlbuCrackie,NM
Posts: 843
RE: Interesting article on oil consumption
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
06-08-2006, 07:56 PM
#6
5th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,768
RE: Interesting article on oil consumption
ORIGINAL: Bad Karma
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
06-08-2006, 08:05 PM
#7
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RE: Interesting article on oil consumption
ORIGINAL: Twisted
No problem, Ryan. So Twister, I've heard different numbers from different sources. Some say a quart every 1k, or even 700 miles is within Ford specs. I don't know which to believe. At any rate, thanks for the info.
ORIGINAL: Twister
it is within Ford specs for a pushrod engine to consume 1 quart every 1500 miles
it is within Ford specs for a pushrod engine to consume 1 quart every 1500 miles
06-08-2006, 09:06 PM
#8
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: THE AlbuCrackie,NM
Posts: 843
RE: Interesting article on oil consumption
ORIGINAL: Twisted
Thanks for the info, Bad Karma.
ORIGINAL: Bad Karma
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
You're welcome....and you can call me Ivan if you'd like.
Bad Karma is just my way of life.....
-Ivan
06-08-2006, 09:11 PM
#9
5th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,768
RE: Interesting article on oil consumption
ORIGINAL: Bad Karma
You're welcome....and you can call me Ivan if you'd like.
Bad Karma is just my way of life.....
-Ivan
ORIGINAL: Twisted
Thanks for the info, Bad Karma.
ORIGINAL: Bad Karma
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
I agree with above said.
I just sold my 2500HD with a 6.0l. In the TSB put out by GM, it states that the 6.0l and the 8.1l will consume AT LEAST one quart of oil every 1500 miles.
When a Northstar comes in the shop, it's the same story, they are usually short about 2 quarts of oil and the driver only reports it being about 3000 miles since their last service. I guess that's not bad since the damn thing takes 7.5 quarts but in a smaller capacity car, it scares me to think that we should all make sure that the oil is within specs like every time we fill up at the gas station.
Imagine having to get shafted by paying $3.00 + a gallon and also having to add a quart every 1000 miles?
That sucks.
-Ivan
You're welcome....and you can call me Ivan if you'd like.
Bad Karma is just my way of life.....
-Ivan
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