Coyote Supercharger Availability?
05-25-2010, 04:08 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Confusion
Posts: 11
Coyote Supercharger Availability?
Does anyone know if Ford will be producing a Racing/Performance turbo or supercharger for the Coyote 5.0L V8? I've read that the aluminum block and physical constraints make an OEM supercharger not feasible, and Ford has therefore either done away with the most significant power modifications or effectively moved them in-house to the production line. But then again, I've learned to not believe everything I read.
It's a key point for me as I weigh the various comparisons and compromises between buying a 2011 GT or going "whole hog" with a GT500. It's particularly important because I would want the unit to be installed before delivery to ensure it would be warranty eligible to whatever extent may be possible and could be rolled into the purchase price.
I'd appreciate any authoratative insight. Thanks in advance.
It's a key point for me as I weigh the various comparisons and compromises between buying a 2011 GT or going "whole hog" with a GT500. It's particularly important because I would want the unit to be installed before delivery to ensure it would be warranty eligible to whatever extent may be possible and could be rolled into the purchase price.
I'd appreciate any authoratative insight. Thanks in advance.
05-25-2010, 04:29 PM
#2
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Decatur AL USA
Posts: 2,176
Whipple has already developed a 7.0 PSI Kit (Max they recommend for factory rods and 11.0 Compression). Its rated at 600 bhp. One thing lots of people overlook is when the engines as low restriction as this you have to move a boat load of air to make 7.0 psi. A little basic math tells me thats moving about 10% more air despite the boost measurement than the 550 bhp HO Kit for the 4.6L. Cylinder Pressure should be in the same area.
Im not sure if the FRPP version will be with this level of boost or less. I guess we will know as soon as the full info on the Shelby GT350 is out (It uses the FRPP version).
I feel the engineer likely had the production 5.0L Supercharged 536 bhp Falcon GTHO Engine in mind when he spoke. That version of the Coyote does have improved rods and pistons. Whats satisfactory for an aftermarket mod and whats satisfactory for production are two very different things.
Im not sure if the FRPP version will be with this level of boost or less. I guess we will know as soon as the full info on the Shelby GT350 is out (It uses the FRPP version).
I feel the engineer likely had the production 5.0L Supercharged 536 bhp Falcon GTHO Engine in mind when he spoke. That version of the Coyote does have improved rods and pistons. Whats satisfactory for an aftermarket mod and whats satisfactory for production are two very different things.
05-25-2010, 07:29 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Confusion
Posts: 11
Gene,
Thanks so much. That makes a lot of sense. While indeed what an aftermarket mod firm recommends (and will warranty) and makers may be willing to approve in the hands of the mass market with the costs on their books are two entirely different matters, I had forgotten altogether about the GT350 which I had more-or-less shut-out of my mind long ago when it seemed to be a fairly superfluous and awkwardly-placed product between the much more powerful standard GT and GT500.
So, I suppose that at least answers half my question, an FRPP Coyote-mated supercharger does indeed exist as it will power the GT350. Whether it will also be available as a "retail" item available through dealers (installed and warranted in the same manner as previous FRPP supercharger upgrades, or current ones for the new V6) is, I suppose, unknown.
At least to MY mind, the GT350 holds many unanswered questions that must be answered to justify its existence alongside the Coyote GT and 2011 GT500 and command any sort of price premium. Perhaps enhanced rods and additional engine-strengthening enhancements will be part of the Shelby GT350 treatment that will help to justify its price premium, but it really does play hell with the GT/Shelby product hierarchy, as the GT350 will have to be either a notably superior vehicle (in a holistic sense) than the GT500, and perhaps the GT350 will provide GT500-like performance without impose as much of a trade-off to the standard GT's other creature comforts and daily drivability, but then you're left with a GT350 that's likely to be more expensive and preferable to the broader market than the GT500 to its price premium.
Perhaps they're counting on limited-production "KR-like" exclusivity and the GT350's commemorative nature to justify the additional cost? I'm sure there could be (and are) 1,000 other threads that center on that exact subject without covering everything that remains unknown. At least from the VERY cheap seats where I sit, it seems like Ford is endeavoring to take much of the most "involved" modding in-house through the production line and Shelby as possible.
I may be better-off waiting a few months until either Shelby sets a precedent or Ford goes on record by making a Coyote-paired supercharger kit available along with its requirements and restrictions for supporting it post-purchase for the garden-variety retail buyer like me. It's a shame that no third factory option exists between the GT and GT500 comprised of a supercharged Coyote that would be available with the full compliment of GT interior and feature option choices.
Thanks again!
Thanks so much. That makes a lot of sense. While indeed what an aftermarket mod firm recommends (and will warranty) and makers may be willing to approve in the hands of the mass market with the costs on their books are two entirely different matters, I had forgotten altogether about the GT350 which I had more-or-less shut-out of my mind long ago when it seemed to be a fairly superfluous and awkwardly-placed product between the much more powerful standard GT and GT500.
So, I suppose that at least answers half my question, an FRPP Coyote-mated supercharger does indeed exist as it will power the GT350. Whether it will also be available as a "retail" item available through dealers (installed and warranted in the same manner as previous FRPP supercharger upgrades, or current ones for the new V6) is, I suppose, unknown.
At least to MY mind, the GT350 holds many unanswered questions that must be answered to justify its existence alongside the Coyote GT and 2011 GT500 and command any sort of price premium. Perhaps enhanced rods and additional engine-strengthening enhancements will be part of the Shelby GT350 treatment that will help to justify its price premium, but it really does play hell with the GT/Shelby product hierarchy, as the GT350 will have to be either a notably superior vehicle (in a holistic sense) than the GT500, and perhaps the GT350 will provide GT500-like performance without impose as much of a trade-off to the standard GT's other creature comforts and daily drivability, but then you're left with a GT350 that's likely to be more expensive and preferable to the broader market than the GT500 to its price premium.
Perhaps they're counting on limited-production "KR-like" exclusivity and the GT350's commemorative nature to justify the additional cost? I'm sure there could be (and are) 1,000 other threads that center on that exact subject without covering everything that remains unknown. At least from the VERY cheap seats where I sit, it seems like Ford is endeavoring to take much of the most "involved" modding in-house through the production line and Shelby as possible.
I may be better-off waiting a few months until either Shelby sets a precedent or Ford goes on record by making a Coyote-paired supercharger kit available along with its requirements and restrictions for supporting it post-purchase for the garden-variety retail buyer like me. It's a shame that no third factory option exists between the GT and GT500 comprised of a supercharged Coyote that would be available with the full compliment of GT interior and feature option choices.
Thanks again!
05-26-2010, 05:16 PM
#4
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 632
Here's my theory:
The GT350 will have a maximum HP rating of 520, but will probably be in the 515 hp range. I can't imagine they'd infringe on the GT500 power to weight ratio, so it would need to be slightly less than that.
At the same time, I'd think they'd need to make it at least 100 hp more than a standard GT to make it significant enough.
The GT350 is priced higher, partly because of what you said, it will be the "exclusive" of the two "Shelby" versions. Not as powerful or fast, but more "rare". To many if it's performance is close to that of the GT500 but it's much more rare, than it will be more of a collectible and therefore worth a slightly higher premium.
I would also suspect that in order to get the 515-520 hp, boost levels will be in the 5.0-5.5 psi range. It would work well for marketing to have the 5.0 boosted at 5.0 psi too.
I would also venture to say some of the internals will be changed and compression ratio will be lowered to 10.0 to 10.5 to 1
Even though the stock 5.0 with 11:1 compression ratio could more than likely easily and safely handle 5.0-6.0 psi boost levels, Ford would NOT want to take the chance of warranty claims on the GT350 doing so.
Furthermore, if Ford DID just strap a supercharger on the 5.0 for the GT350 without changing the internals, they would effectively be saying to everyone, "the 5.0 Coyote engine is stout and plenty strong to support 5.0 psi of boost from a supercharger, therefore we saw no reason to change anything other than adding the supercharger and adjusting the needed elements via an ECU tune to support it."
That would then open the doors for every 5.0 liter owner to to put a supercharger on the 2011 GT knowing they can with confidence boost the car without worry of damaging anything. Ford would not do that.
And even one step further, other than collectors, who'd spend the money on the GT350 then, as people would simply say, "I'll just buy a 5.0 liter for $35k, and spend $5-6k and put the supercharger on myself and have just as fast and just as safe of a car, (without the ugly oversized front bumper of the GT350 anyway)."
Ford would also not want to jeopardize the "rareness" of the GT350 by simply making it a 5.0 with a supercharger strap to it, that any 5.0 liter owner could easily do.
As Gene pointed out Whipple apparently has determined 7.0 psi is max boost on the 5.0 with the 11:1 compression ratio.
But I'm sure that's still pushing the envelope more than most owners would want to do.
I'd say most owners will be happy with 5.0-5.5 psi boost max on their 5.0
Again, that should be good for well over 500 crank hp, and still give a GT350 a run for it's money and not be to far back from the 2011 GT500 and will probably run neck and neck with the 2010 GT500 and pull away from the 2007-2009 GT500.
The GT350 will have a maximum HP rating of 520, but will probably be in the 515 hp range. I can't imagine they'd infringe on the GT500 power to weight ratio, so it would need to be slightly less than that.
At the same time, I'd think they'd need to make it at least 100 hp more than a standard GT to make it significant enough.
The GT350 is priced higher, partly because of what you said, it will be the "exclusive" of the two "Shelby" versions. Not as powerful or fast, but more "rare". To many if it's performance is close to that of the GT500 but it's much more rare, than it will be more of a collectible and therefore worth a slightly higher premium.
I would also suspect that in order to get the 515-520 hp, boost levels will be in the 5.0-5.5 psi range. It would work well for marketing to have the 5.0 boosted at 5.0 psi too.
I would also venture to say some of the internals will be changed and compression ratio will be lowered to 10.0 to 10.5 to 1
Even though the stock 5.0 with 11:1 compression ratio could more than likely easily and safely handle 5.0-6.0 psi boost levels, Ford would NOT want to take the chance of warranty claims on the GT350 doing so.
Furthermore, if Ford DID just strap a supercharger on the 5.0 for the GT350 without changing the internals, they would effectively be saying to everyone, "the 5.0 Coyote engine is stout and plenty strong to support 5.0 psi of boost from a supercharger, therefore we saw no reason to change anything other than adding the supercharger and adjusting the needed elements via an ECU tune to support it."
That would then open the doors for every 5.0 liter owner to to put a supercharger on the 2011 GT knowing they can with confidence boost the car without worry of damaging anything. Ford would not do that.
And even one step further, other than collectors, who'd spend the money on the GT350 then, as people would simply say, "I'll just buy a 5.0 liter for $35k, and spend $5-6k and put the supercharger on myself and have just as fast and just as safe of a car, (without the ugly oversized front bumper of the GT350 anyway)."
Ford would also not want to jeopardize the "rareness" of the GT350 by simply making it a 5.0 with a supercharger strap to it, that any 5.0 liter owner could easily do.
As Gene pointed out Whipple apparently has determined 7.0 psi is max boost on the 5.0 with the 11:1 compression ratio.
But I'm sure that's still pushing the envelope more than most owners would want to do.
I'd say most owners will be happy with 5.0-5.5 psi boost max on their 5.0
Again, that should be good for well over 500 crank hp, and still give a GT350 a run for it's money and not be to far back from the 2011 GT500 and will probably run neck and neck with the 2010 GT500 and pull away from the 2007-2009 GT500.
05-26-2010, 07:39 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Confusion
Posts: 11
Boy, I'm sure glad I found this forum. It certainly seems like I've come to the right place. All of your suppositions and presumptions sound highly reasonable, if not downright likely, from soup to nuts.
It's clear that for as robust as that big hunk of iron was, the aluminum 5.0 relies on a great deal of science and alchemy to derive the performance it does. Ford warrantying a wide spate of its own OEM performance and racing accessories is on the previous V8 is one thing, giving customers a blank check to "push the envelope" is quite another.
I'm not out to try to make for myself a car that roars like a GT500 out of something that shouldn't be. Nor am I trying to end-around Ford's product marketing team (or Shelby's for that matter). I'd actually be perfectly happy with a conservatively turbocharged coyote in the 500hp range that would be warranty-eligible that would allow me to keep the best parts of the GT (it's daily drivability versus the Shelby's more brute force/blunt object kind of weapon).
I DO think it's a bit of a shame if the GT350 proves to be such an expensive proposition based solely upon limited production rarity that's been decided before the fact. It's a very different thing when history determines that a diamond in the rough existed and there are simply very few in existence because they just weren't made in large numbers at the time or the ravages of time have simply whittled the number down to a precious few specimens left. Seeking to exploit Shelby and Mustang's brand cachet by deliberately setting-out to create a limited production car that happens to be somewhat of an odd-duck and second (or even third) best compared to the GT value or outright GT500 brawn in just about every measure but for the number that exist smacks to me of being more than a little gauche and the kind of "trading on loyalty" that more exploits a customer base than builds one.
Besides, during a great many of the "dark years" before Alan Mulally once again brought religion and the prospect of redemption to the hallways of Dearborn, it was Shelby who continued to give the Mustang name most of any lingering credibility it had (apart from the genius 2005 "retro" styling rework). Today's Ford, and now a pair of more-than-enviable Mustang versions, is a very different proposition that brings more than its own fair share of value to the table to those who may have left Mustang but are now rediscovering it all over again. Personally, I believe one has to either have more money than Cresus with nothing to spend it on or believe that Carol Shelby is imminently planning to hang-up his spurs before the GT350 becomes even reasonably attractive to anyone but the most die-hard Shelby Mustang aficionados who may be likely to buy it simply because Shelby modded it.
As I continue to gather the last few data points that will help me decide for myself which solution will best meet my wants (GT or GT500), I'm struck at just how tremendous a value proposition each of the 3 versions happens to be. A base-trim V6 may be the best value in fun driving today. The GT500 may very well be the best American muscle car ever made; and by comparison, the GT (whose giddyup even with an automatic transmission and 3.13 axle is quite remarkable) seems to be no less remarkable or compelling.
Once I finally mush my head into a shape that allows me to fully admit to myself that there are really no bad options here, I'm sure that once I've managed to fill in the blanks the right answer for me will make itself more than obvious. I just hope I don't have to wait TOO too long for Ford to hold forth with a Coyote supercharger, as those are summer months I could otherwise be driving.
Thanks for the additional insight.
It's clear that for as robust as that big hunk of iron was, the aluminum 5.0 relies on a great deal of science and alchemy to derive the performance it does. Ford warrantying a wide spate of its own OEM performance and racing accessories is on the previous V8 is one thing, giving customers a blank check to "push the envelope" is quite another.
I'm not out to try to make for myself a car that roars like a GT500 out of something that shouldn't be. Nor am I trying to end-around Ford's product marketing team (or Shelby's for that matter). I'd actually be perfectly happy with a conservatively turbocharged coyote in the 500hp range that would be warranty-eligible that would allow me to keep the best parts of the GT (it's daily drivability versus the Shelby's more brute force/blunt object kind of weapon).
I DO think it's a bit of a shame if the GT350 proves to be such an expensive proposition based solely upon limited production rarity that's been decided before the fact. It's a very different thing when history determines that a diamond in the rough existed and there are simply very few in existence because they just weren't made in large numbers at the time or the ravages of time have simply whittled the number down to a precious few specimens left. Seeking to exploit Shelby and Mustang's brand cachet by deliberately setting-out to create a limited production car that happens to be somewhat of an odd-duck and second (or even third) best compared to the GT value or outright GT500 brawn in just about every measure but for the number that exist smacks to me of being more than a little gauche and the kind of "trading on loyalty" that more exploits a customer base than builds one.
Besides, during a great many of the "dark years" before Alan Mulally once again brought religion and the prospect of redemption to the hallways of Dearborn, it was Shelby who continued to give the Mustang name most of any lingering credibility it had (apart from the genius 2005 "retro" styling rework). Today's Ford, and now a pair of more-than-enviable Mustang versions, is a very different proposition that brings more than its own fair share of value to the table to those who may have left Mustang but are now rediscovering it all over again. Personally, I believe one has to either have more money than Cresus with nothing to spend it on or believe that Carol Shelby is imminently planning to hang-up his spurs before the GT350 becomes even reasonably attractive to anyone but the most die-hard Shelby Mustang aficionados who may be likely to buy it simply because Shelby modded it.
As I continue to gather the last few data points that will help me decide for myself which solution will best meet my wants (GT or GT500), I'm struck at just how tremendous a value proposition each of the 3 versions happens to be. A base-trim V6 may be the best value in fun driving today. The GT500 may very well be the best American muscle car ever made; and by comparison, the GT (whose giddyup even with an automatic transmission and 3.13 axle is quite remarkable) seems to be no less remarkable or compelling.
Once I finally mush my head into a shape that allows me to fully admit to myself that there are really no bad options here, I'm sure that once I've managed to fill in the blanks the right answer for me will make itself more than obvious. I just hope I don't have to wait TOO too long for Ford to hold forth with a Coyote supercharger, as those are summer months I could otherwise be driving.
Thanks for the additional insight.
05-28-2010, 11:16 PM
#6
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,397
Boy, I'm sure glad I found this forum. It certainly seems like I've come to the right place. All of your suppositions and presumptions sound highly reasonable, if not downright likely, from soup to nuts.
It's clear that for as robust as that big hunk of iron was, the aluminum 5.0 relies on a great deal of science and alchemy to derive the performance it does. Ford warrantying a wide spate of its own OEM performance and racing accessories is on the previous V8 is one thing, giving customers a blank check to "push the envelope" is quite another.
I'm not out to try to make for myself a car that roars like a GT500 out of something that shouldn't be. Nor am I trying to end-around Ford's product marketing team (or Shelby's for that matter). I'd actually be perfectly happy with a conservatively turbocharged coyote in the 500hp range that would be warranty-eligible that would allow me to keep the best parts of the GT (it's daily drivability versus the Shelby's more brute force/blunt object kind of weapon).
I DO think it's a bit of a shame if the GT350 proves to be such an expensive proposition based solely upon limited production rarity that's been decided before the fact. It's a very different thing when history determines that a diamond in the rough existed and there are simply very few in existence because they just weren't made in large numbers at the time or the ravages of time have simply whittled the number down to a precious few specimens left. Seeking to exploit Shelby and Mustang's brand cachet by deliberately setting-out to create a limited production car that happens to be somewhat of an odd-duck and second (or even third) best compared to the GT value or outright GT500 brawn in just about every measure but for the number that exist smacks to me of being more than a little gauche and the kind of "trading on loyalty" that more exploits a customer base than builds one.
Besides, during a great many of the "dark years" before Alan Mulally once again brought religion and the prospect of redemption to the hallways of Dearborn, it was Shelby who continued to give the Mustang name most of any lingering credibility it had (apart from the genius 2005 "retro" styling rework). Today's Ford, and now a pair of more-than-enviable Mustang versions, is a very different proposition that brings more than its own fair share of value to the table to those who may have left Mustang but are now rediscovering it all over again. Personally, I believe one has to either have more money than Cresus with nothing to spend it on or believe that Carol Shelby is imminently planning to hang-up his spurs before the GT350 becomes even reasonably attractive to anyone but the most die-hard Shelby Mustang aficionados who may be likely to buy it simply because Shelby modded it.
As I continue to gather the last few data points that will help me decide for myself which solution will best meet my wants (GT or GT500), I'm struck at just how tremendous a value proposition each of the 3 versions happens to be. A base-trim V6 may be the best value in fun driving today. The GT500 may very well be the best American muscle car ever made; and by comparison, the GT (whose giddyup even with an automatic transmission and 3.13 axle is quite remarkable) seems to be no less remarkable or compelling.
Once I finally mush my head into a shape that allows me to fully admit to myself that there are really no bad options here, I'm sure that once I've managed to fill in the blanks the right answer for me will make itself more than obvious. I just hope I don't have to wait TOO too long for Ford to hold forth with a Coyote supercharger, as those are summer months I could otherwise be driving.
Thanks for the additional insight.
It's clear that for as robust as that big hunk of iron was, the aluminum 5.0 relies on a great deal of science and alchemy to derive the performance it does. Ford warrantying a wide spate of its own OEM performance and racing accessories is on the previous V8 is one thing, giving customers a blank check to "push the envelope" is quite another.
I'm not out to try to make for myself a car that roars like a GT500 out of something that shouldn't be. Nor am I trying to end-around Ford's product marketing team (or Shelby's for that matter). I'd actually be perfectly happy with a conservatively turbocharged coyote in the 500hp range that would be warranty-eligible that would allow me to keep the best parts of the GT (it's daily drivability versus the Shelby's more brute force/blunt object kind of weapon).
I DO think it's a bit of a shame if the GT350 proves to be such an expensive proposition based solely upon limited production rarity that's been decided before the fact. It's a very different thing when history determines that a diamond in the rough existed and there are simply very few in existence because they just weren't made in large numbers at the time or the ravages of time have simply whittled the number down to a precious few specimens left. Seeking to exploit Shelby and Mustang's brand cachet by deliberately setting-out to create a limited production car that happens to be somewhat of an odd-duck and second (or even third) best compared to the GT value or outright GT500 brawn in just about every measure but for the number that exist smacks to me of being more than a little gauche and the kind of "trading on loyalty" that more exploits a customer base than builds one.
Besides, during a great many of the "dark years" before Alan Mulally once again brought religion and the prospect of redemption to the hallways of Dearborn, it was Shelby who continued to give the Mustang name most of any lingering credibility it had (apart from the genius 2005 "retro" styling rework). Today's Ford, and now a pair of more-than-enviable Mustang versions, is a very different proposition that brings more than its own fair share of value to the table to those who may have left Mustang but are now rediscovering it all over again. Personally, I believe one has to either have more money than Cresus with nothing to spend it on or believe that Carol Shelby is imminently planning to hang-up his spurs before the GT350 becomes even reasonably attractive to anyone but the most die-hard Shelby Mustang aficionados who may be likely to buy it simply because Shelby modded it.
As I continue to gather the last few data points that will help me decide for myself which solution will best meet my wants (GT or GT500), I'm struck at just how tremendous a value proposition each of the 3 versions happens to be. A base-trim V6 may be the best value in fun driving today. The GT500 may very well be the best American muscle car ever made; and by comparison, the GT (whose giddyup even with an automatic transmission and 3.13 axle is quite remarkable) seems to be no less remarkable or compelling.
Once I finally mush my head into a shape that allows me to fully admit to myself that there are really no bad options here, I'm sure that once I've managed to fill in the blanks the right answer for me will make itself more than obvious. I just hope I don't have to wait TOO too long for Ford to hold forth with a Coyote supercharger, as those are summer months I could otherwise be driving.
Thanks for the additional insight.
The roush blowers on the 10 are the only blowers that keep the real 36/36 warranty on everything. I'm not sure if there will be roush blowers right away for 11's i heard they were having some serious issues with the blowers and the tranny of the car. No idea how accurate that it, but that's what i was told by a roush dealer who had no reason to lie to me.
05-30-2010, 12:17 PM
#7
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ca
Posts: 262
I think u guys are forgetting that the gt350 is not a factory vehicle. U buy a white gt and send it to vegas where shelby of america turns it into a 350.... I dought they open the engine with the supercharger...
05-30-2010, 04:31 PM
#8
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 632
Good point, but for the $30k or so they charge you never know.
