How Fast?
5th Gear Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,806
From: DFW
RE: How Fast?
ORIGINAL: Galactusz
Wait a minute, ain't he still alive?
ORIGINAL: atomsk680
[
] parnelli jones must be spinning over in his grave
ORIGINAL: Galactusz
I'm making up my own rules as we go along.
I'm making up my own rules as we go along.
] parnelli jones must be spinning over in his grave
5th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,707
From: San Francisco
RE: How Fast?
to generalize american cars and european cars is silly....your thinking a cheapy production car like the mustang in stock form vs. some ferarri bmw audi or any of the other specialty and very much more expensive cars. which is not only an unfair comparison, u cant really compare them at all.
plus if we are talking modern cars i bet you could mod out a 07 mustang gt to compete with "euro cars" with the difference you save of the initial buying of the car compared to a european performance car.
plus there are plenty of worthless cars that are european made.... http://rcw.bc.ca/Holiday/Holland/Red_car.JPG dosent look like it will be setting any landspeed records......why not compare a Ford GT or a Viper against that? Saleen S7?
plus if we are talking modern cars i bet you could mod out a 07 mustang gt to compete with "euro cars" with the difference you save of the initial buying of the car compared to a european performance car.
plus there are plenty of worthless cars that are european made.... http://rcw.bc.ca/Holiday/Holland/Red_car.JPG dosent look like it will be setting any landspeed records......why not compare a Ford GT or a Viper against that? Saleen S7?
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 15
RE: How Fast?
I was talking to a guy who does a fair amount of vintage racing... says he's had a 65 Fastback up to 170. He said it's all about power and the right suspension set up,but no matter what wind buffetting is always a problem.
I've done those kinds of speeds in my M5, but that's 4200 lbs of modern car complete with air bags, crumple zones, 15inch cross drilled brakesand down force generating aerodynamics; that's a whole different story.
I've done those kinds of speeds in my M5, but that's 4200 lbs of modern car complete with air bags, crumple zones, 15inch cross drilled brakesand down force generating aerodynamics; that's a whole different story.
5th Gear Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,566
From: Marquette Mi
RE: How Fast?
Unlimited power? Well put a SaturnV engine under it and put it on the moon, or mars. Put atop the Apollo multistage launch vehicle and 17,000mph isnt tough to do.
Some guy put a JATO rocket on the back of a mid 60s Impala. As soon as he lit it, he was a passenger with a creaming thrill ride up to around 340mph. When he hit the brakes they melted and disintegrated leaving some black marks on the highway from all four wheels. He then left to roadway on a slight turn with a very slight rise and impacted a rock wall doing around 300mph. They thought it was a small plane crash untill they found automotive trim pieces at the crash site.
You put enough power behind it, it will go no matter how bad the aero is. Everyone wants unlimited power. Top Fuel and military jets are reaching the human G force limits as it is. The faster you go the more difficult it is to turn, and the force required to impart the turn is higher on an expotential rate, much like the power needed to move something through the air over 140mph. Simply explained 'expotential' means the force or power needed to change velocity does not increase at the same rate as velocity increases. If it were it would be linear. The dotted line is linear, the curved line represents what the power or force needed to achieve a higher velocity would be.
You know how it feels when you are in a swimming pool or lake up to your chest and you try to walk through the water? The air feels the same way when you go fast enough. It also acts similar to fluid when a fast moving object passes through it. It takes more effort to move quickly than slowly through water or air. That resistance to movement through the air is called drag.
Additionally you have lift. Whenever a rounded or blunt object with one side longer than the other passes through the air, you have a pressure differential because the air going the long way over the rounded surface creates a low pressure zone while the air on the short side creates high pressure. The higher pressure wants to lift the object. Its how an airplane wing works.
The underside of a car is relatively flat, while the top gradually raises up as you go over the hood then roof. The air moving over the top of the car is moving faster and has lower pressure, in addition to the induced lift of the curve, there is also air trapped under the hood and the interior surfaces of the front sheetmetal. That makes for a high pressure area as well, and wants to lift the front end. Releasing that pressure will reduce front end lift, also keeping air from under the car will reduce lift over the entire car.
Spoilers like were on Trans AMs back in the 70s interrupt the lift by creating a high pressure zone and a low pressre zone in a localized area. Angle of the spoiler and the shape play a huge part of it working effectively. Most wings you see on the decklid of Hondas and ricer mobiles are only creating drag and limiting the top speed and fuel economy of the vehicle. They do absolutely nothing to keep any part of the car on the ground, other than keeping it from creating lift by limiting the velocity the car can achieve. Gravity does all the work on those cars..
That being said, cars from the 60s and before had very little influence regarding aerodynamics. They have high drag and lift because most were never meant to go over 100mph. That doesnt mean you cant make changes and get better aero from a vintage auto, but simply adding more power will only make the bad parts of the aero worse. Figuring out how to make a car go faster safely with the same power is more productive than increasing power to make up for the aero deficiencies. Cleaning it up for less drag, adding spoilers and air dams, keeping air out of places it doesnt need to be will make a car faster. Doing the aero improvement allows greater speed and in larger increments than simply adding power, after a certain point in the velocity scale.
Mustangs can be made plenty fast. They have been drag raced and road raced since they were first built. They arent the slipperiest vehicles, but they arent the worst either. How fast a particular one is depends on gearing, power available, and drag. Few are the same, and speaking of what a stone stock one would do 40 years ago is irrelevant as very few are stone stock today. Just like a comparison with an unmodified 40 year old US made vehicle with a 06 or 07 Euro vehicle is irrelevant.
40 years ago European cars werent all that great either, and many of US made vehicles outperform european and japanese cars today. The thing that is important is the market and intended use dictate what is the better car for a certain part of the world. Few people in Japan have a use for a car that will go 140mph, where as in Germany that is a nice cruising speed between Frankfurt and Kaiserlautern. The roads in Europe are old winding roads, somewhat like they are on the East Coast in the old cities. When you get out in the midwest and on the great plains you have arrow straight roads with few turns in them, because there were no geographical obastacles to go around.. like hills.
Saying european or asian cars are better is a matter of preference. What aspect of the vehicle each person places higher in priority is the distinction between them. After having a 79 Firebird in Germany, rolling down the bahn at 140mph and leaving the majority of eruopean cars wondering how that ugly old car just went around that curve without braking, when they had to slow considerably, and then it was just plain gone once the road straightened out, rest assured its a fallacy that european cars are faster and handle better..
Sure if you want to compare an M5 or one of the 500SL to a 65 Mustang, yeah its gonna have a tough time if it isnt modded. For the price of one of those M5s or an 850 BMW you could have a 65 Mustang that slaps around an F40, takes its lunch money, and takes a leak in its juice box on a road course or drag strip.
Comparing apples and watermelons is fun for some, but the rest of us would rather just eat them.
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/DD9A524084F8435AB1D3403788E81717.jpg[/IMG]
Some guy put a JATO rocket on the back of a mid 60s Impala. As soon as he lit it, he was a passenger with a creaming thrill ride up to around 340mph. When he hit the brakes they melted and disintegrated leaving some black marks on the highway from all four wheels. He then left to roadway on a slight turn with a very slight rise and impacted a rock wall doing around 300mph. They thought it was a small plane crash untill they found automotive trim pieces at the crash site.
You put enough power behind it, it will go no matter how bad the aero is. Everyone wants unlimited power. Top Fuel and military jets are reaching the human G force limits as it is. The faster you go the more difficult it is to turn, and the force required to impart the turn is higher on an expotential rate, much like the power needed to move something through the air over 140mph. Simply explained 'expotential' means the force or power needed to change velocity does not increase at the same rate as velocity increases. If it were it would be linear. The dotted line is linear, the curved line represents what the power or force needed to achieve a higher velocity would be.
You know how it feels when you are in a swimming pool or lake up to your chest and you try to walk through the water? The air feels the same way when you go fast enough. It also acts similar to fluid when a fast moving object passes through it. It takes more effort to move quickly than slowly through water or air. That resistance to movement through the air is called drag.
Additionally you have lift. Whenever a rounded or blunt object with one side longer than the other passes through the air, you have a pressure differential because the air going the long way over the rounded surface creates a low pressure zone while the air on the short side creates high pressure. The higher pressure wants to lift the object. Its how an airplane wing works.
The underside of a car is relatively flat, while the top gradually raises up as you go over the hood then roof. The air moving over the top of the car is moving faster and has lower pressure, in addition to the induced lift of the curve, there is also air trapped under the hood and the interior surfaces of the front sheetmetal. That makes for a high pressure area as well, and wants to lift the front end. Releasing that pressure will reduce front end lift, also keeping air from under the car will reduce lift over the entire car.
Spoilers like were on Trans AMs back in the 70s interrupt the lift by creating a high pressure zone and a low pressre zone in a localized area. Angle of the spoiler and the shape play a huge part of it working effectively. Most wings you see on the decklid of Hondas and ricer mobiles are only creating drag and limiting the top speed and fuel economy of the vehicle. They do absolutely nothing to keep any part of the car on the ground, other than keeping it from creating lift by limiting the velocity the car can achieve. Gravity does all the work on those cars..
That being said, cars from the 60s and before had very little influence regarding aerodynamics. They have high drag and lift because most were never meant to go over 100mph. That doesnt mean you cant make changes and get better aero from a vintage auto, but simply adding more power will only make the bad parts of the aero worse. Figuring out how to make a car go faster safely with the same power is more productive than increasing power to make up for the aero deficiencies. Cleaning it up for less drag, adding spoilers and air dams, keeping air out of places it doesnt need to be will make a car faster. Doing the aero improvement allows greater speed and in larger increments than simply adding power, after a certain point in the velocity scale.
Mustangs can be made plenty fast. They have been drag raced and road raced since they were first built. They arent the slipperiest vehicles, but they arent the worst either. How fast a particular one is depends on gearing, power available, and drag. Few are the same, and speaking of what a stone stock one would do 40 years ago is irrelevant as very few are stone stock today. Just like a comparison with an unmodified 40 year old US made vehicle with a 06 or 07 Euro vehicle is irrelevant.
40 years ago European cars werent all that great either, and many of US made vehicles outperform european and japanese cars today. The thing that is important is the market and intended use dictate what is the better car for a certain part of the world. Few people in Japan have a use for a car that will go 140mph, where as in Germany that is a nice cruising speed between Frankfurt and Kaiserlautern. The roads in Europe are old winding roads, somewhat like they are on the East Coast in the old cities. When you get out in the midwest and on the great plains you have arrow straight roads with few turns in them, because there were no geographical obastacles to go around.. like hills.
Saying european or asian cars are better is a matter of preference. What aspect of the vehicle each person places higher in priority is the distinction between them. After having a 79 Firebird in Germany, rolling down the bahn at 140mph and leaving the majority of eruopean cars wondering how that ugly old car just went around that curve without braking, when they had to slow considerably, and then it was just plain gone once the road straightened out, rest assured its a fallacy that european cars are faster and handle better..
Sure if you want to compare an M5 or one of the 500SL to a 65 Mustang, yeah its gonna have a tough time if it isnt modded. For the price of one of those M5s or an 850 BMW you could have a 65 Mustang that slaps around an F40, takes its lunch money, and takes a leak in its juice box on a road course or drag strip.
Comparing apples and watermelons is fun for some, but the rest of us would rather just eat them.
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/DD9A524084F8435AB1D3403788E81717.jpg[/IMG]
