F1Fan

Thanks for the nice words Dave, 07GT and Earl. I do my best.

Cheers

cartsand7

so f1, what do think is the best for sport line springs, shock and strut wise

RodeoFlyer

I hardly fired a broadside. I personally have found all of F1Fan's write-ups informative and obviously educated. I stated nothing more than the fact that I received my information from the guys at Maximum, who after F1Fan's response i spoke with at great length regarding my shocks. Frankly they are in disagreement and now i'm thoroughly confused. I did not insult him or "broadside" him. I merely stated that I received my information from people who are very reputable in the business of Mustang suspensions. I have been steered away from the Tokico's by many people with various models of Mustangs with countless hours of track time. At this point I am going with majority opinion socially and professionally. If F1Fan feels he can make my car perform better I will gladly pay him to do so. I don't care who gets me to the front of the pack as long as I get there.

F1Fan

Hi cartsand7,

Best for what? A daily driven street car in the mid-west, aweek-end autocross toy in SoCal, a dedicateddragstrip car orstreet driven track day car that still gets driven regularly by an experienced driver who knows and accepts the required compromises on the street or a car your wife won'tnotice you've been messing with?

Start bydeciding if this is adaily driven street car, where you think you are going to go with awheel and tire package and if it rains and/or snows alot where you live. Also how much noiseare you willing to put up with, do youlike to drive long distances etc. Be realistic in what youthink youwant and ask for. Also considerhow much money and time are you willing to commit to on setup and maintaining the suspension. This is all part ofthe plan IMO.

Here is my thinking for the cars in the first paragraph with appropriate wheels and tires.

Daily-driver in themid-west:H&R Sport,Steeda Standard or Ultra Lite sportsprings with Tokico D-Specs
Week-end autocross toy in SoCal: Steeda Competition or H&R Racewith Tokico D-Spec or KW Varient-3 coilovers
Dedicated drag strip car: talk to your chassis builder
Street driven track day car: see week-end autocross toy
Wife's car: H&R Sport, Steeda Ultra Lite sport springs with Tokico D-Specs run soft when she drives it, turn it up to go faster

Is this what you want to know?

HTH

F1Fan

Hi RodeoFlyer,

Hmmm, that is not how it sounded to me, it sounded morelike youdoubted what I posted and trusted the MM salesperson on the other end of the phone. I have no motive to give you bad or incorrect advice nor am I trying to sell you anything. I'm just try to help other S197 Mustang people with the experience I've had over the years working on suspension forhigh performance production based road and race cars which have been for the most part German made.

It's is fine to disagree on things that are subject to a lot of variable results which in my opinion just means we don't have enough information to make good decisions that will allowus to determine aclear outcome and better option. As to the purpose and focus of the Bilstein HD dampers MM may feel differently about when to use a BilsteinHD range damper but the verythrough people at Bilstein know what they designed the HD and Sport product lines for and in my experience they know what they are talking about.In this there is nothing to disagree about if you have ever tried an HD damperback to back with a Sport damper on thesame vehicle with the same springs. I've triedBilsteinHD, Sport and Race (both Race dampers were threaded body),damper lines on several cars including VW Golf, Porsche 996 and the differences are not small in damping and control. Please trust me then I tell youthatBilstein's Sport line is what you want if youarerunningBilstein dampers on the street.

What kind of racing are you doing or plan to be doing? Where is the rule book? Do you have a budgetand is it big enough to go first boat? If so I'll help you! If not I will still help with advice and ideas to consider. I don't "feel" I can get your car to the front of the packI know I can engineer and tune your car tothe front of the pack if you as a driver are capable, have the budget and are willing to invest the time required to get there, otherwisethis is all academic.

O.K. here is the deal with the new Tokico dampers. TheS197 DSP-12 D-Specs are the first truly decent Tokico dampers I've ever seen and used. I too was VERY reluctant to buy the new D-Specsbut with the stiffest sport springs available(at the time Eibach ProKit), already installed in my car I was hating the stock Forddampers as everything about the dampingeven on stock springs waswrong for performance or comfort. the real problem was thatmy first choice ofKoni Sport dampers were at least two years away and GOK (God Only Knows),how long Bilstein was going to take to release their S197 Sport line dampers as Bilstein is ALWAYS very slow to release new dampers for US cars.Sure the older line Tokico 5 way adjustable damperswere sort of O.K. if you lacked the budget for Koni or Bilstein Sport dampers or if you were unlucky enough to have a car that only Tokico had damper applications for.Also Tokico in the past always had durability issues (cheap rods andsoft chrome that wore seals fast),and I swear only one valve setting for every application Tokico sold. This all seems to havechanged with the introduction of the D-Spec dampers. The D-Specs parts are much better finished with what appear to be improved seal and rod materials. The issue of valve damping IMO has been overcome at least for aperformance street application with the extremely wide variable damping rates which Tokico had Steeda develop variable ratiobump and rebound valve curves foras the damping is increased. The D-Specs seem to work well with a variety of different sport springs atdifferent ride heightsand can stillretaingood body control at lower damping rates for better comfort. All in all not a bad deal for $550 at all four corners.

I'm pretty much a free resource when I think I havesomething to contribute here. The only time Iaccept any form of compensation for suspension work or advice is professionally and from thelocal carbums who drink my beer and popoutmy garage's refrigerator. Them I ask to makean offering to thegarage gods by refilling the darnedthing with whatever I'm out of. The usual offering for a days work (10 minutes or 10 hours), on the underside of the chassis is 2-4 cases of beer or pop depending on how dirty the underside of the car is and what is missing from the fridge.

If you are in SoCal and want to come over and wrench on your S197 bringsome beer, Sam Adams Lager in glassis what I need at the moment as I still have a ton of pop leftover from the holidays.


Cheers

F1Fan

Hi earl,

I'm only human and I have not always been nice when I'm impatient, tired or the person posting is particularly thick. But I do try to maintain a certain level of nice to make up for my long winded replies.

Cheers

Simon1

F1Fan,

How about the kit Saleen makes for the S197. Front sway bar, new front springs and shocks/struts all the way around. I go to the strip occasionally, but I'm not that interested in having a drag strip only car. I doubtI will ever road race. I do that enough at work. I'm looking for a lowered daily driver suspension. My wife doesn't drive it and I don't mind a firm ride.

I'm pretty sureI will need some camber bolts, an adjustable panhard bar and adjustable LCA's.

CrazyAl

I personally don't care for the majority of the pre-made kits out there.

First of all, most of the kits include a front sway bar. In my opinion this part is at the very bottom of the mod list for most people. Why? Well first off, the OEM front bar is plenty strong to control body roll in most applications. And second, the S197 understeers from the factory. If you were to increase the stiffness of the rear sway bar relative to the front you will remove the understeer. On the other hand, if you stiffen the front with respect to the rear, you make the understeer worse. If you "upgrade" just the front bar, you will make the existing understeer issue even worse. If you "upgrade" both the front and the rear, you will keep the status quo. If you stiffen the rear only, then you will remove the understeer problem. Therefore I recommend replacing the rear sway bar ONLY for most applications. This is exactly what Ford did with the GT500. Leaving the front alone and stiffening the rear will remove the understeer issue and will also help you keep the rear end planted well when you accelerate hard.

I am of the opinion that a lot of companies sell sway bar kits with both barsjust because they are a popular mod item. But understand that a stiffer sway bar isn't necissarily better than a smaller one. You have to look at the entire package as a whole.

Here is my suggested list for a street performance / weekend race /daily driver setup:

Springs: your choice of Ford, Roush, Steeda Ultralite, or Eibach Pro-Kit
Shocks: Toicko D-Specs ($540 shipped from Brenspeed)
Rear Sway Bar: Steeda or BMR
BMR or Spohn Adjustable Panhard Bar
BMR Panhard Bar Brace (optional, but if you can afford it, throw it in)
BMR Adjustable "Street" Lower control arms
Camber Bolts


There is a lot more information in this thread: https://mustangforums.com/m_2184423/tm.htm

And here is my exhaustive discussion of individual suspension parts: https://mustangforums.com/m_1696246/tm.htm#1700694

Simon1

Sweet! Thank you.

RodeoFlyer

+100 on the front bar - it made my car literally undriveable on the autocross track. now that everything is done, my rear bar is set stiff and the front is on the lightest setting. I'd put my stock one back on, but I have the cool billet brackets and endlinks and other unnecessary nonsense. My buddy put a V6 bar on his. very nice cheap mod. the factory understeer is horrible.