windage tray
01-23-2007, 01:05 AM
#21
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tri Cities, TN
Posts: 452
RE: windage tray
Hey F1, my example about removing the quart of oil was mostly a drag race scenario, although applicable to any engine. On the dyno, welooked atthe oil pressure curves after each run and removed a half a quart at a time. Whenthe oil pressure fluctuationduring a pull went from over 4psi to less than two, and then stabalized, I decided there wasn't any benefit in removing any more oil. That put me at 8.5 qts in a 10 qt pan, which is still plenty of oil, and yielded a 26 hp gain on an 821 hp engine. That pan is designed to keep the pick-up well covered under extreme forward g-forces, so by lowering theoil level 1.5 qts., there isn't much risk for an 8 sec. run. Same in a production deal on the street. I don't think I'd make a habit of driving around a quart low (although I've been accused of just that
) but to get to the track andremove a qt.wouldn't hurt a thing.
How you would find that compromise between an effecient oil level and having enough to keep the pickup covered in a road race pan would be the same...it would take some testing. Most ofthe volume of oil in something like a road race wet sump pan is for oil cooling, not to keep the pick-up covered. You'd have to take an awful lot of oil out as to starve the pick-up, even in high rpm, high g force conditions, and if you're in a scenario where there's poor enough drainback to starve the pan, even under hard cornering, then the drainback issues are your problem, not the pan. One quart shouldn't be the breaking point, ever. I also don't think removing a quart, or even two, in a 12 qt. race pan is going to yield the same results, hp wise. Removing more than that wold defeat the purpose of the high vol. pan. Besides, engine longevity and oil control are far more important in an endurance scenario, and I don't think many guys are willing to give up that extra qt of oil for a few (maybe) extra hp. Yes, thedry sump solves all these problems, and at a price. I'm actually switching to adry sump on the above engine...should be worth another 20+hp.
Sorry to hear about the pan on the 911, but not surprised. A good oil pan is a work of art, and not many really know what they're doing there. Ther are places to budget a build, and places not to skimp...to me, an oil pan is one place well worth the investment.
) but to get to the track andremove a qt.wouldn't hurt a thing. How you would find that compromise between an effecient oil level and having enough to keep the pickup covered in a road race pan would be the same...it would take some testing. Most ofthe volume of oil in something like a road race wet sump pan is for oil cooling, not to keep the pick-up covered. You'd have to take an awful lot of oil out as to starve the pick-up, even in high rpm, high g force conditions, and if you're in a scenario where there's poor enough drainback to starve the pan, even under hard cornering, then the drainback issues are your problem, not the pan. One quart shouldn't be the breaking point, ever. I also don't think removing a quart, or even two, in a 12 qt. race pan is going to yield the same results, hp wise. Removing more than that wold defeat the purpose of the high vol. pan. Besides, engine longevity and oil control are far more important in an endurance scenario, and I don't think many guys are willing to give up that extra qt of oil for a few (maybe) extra hp. Yes, thedry sump solves all these problems, and at a price. I'm actually switching to adry sump on the above engine...should be worth another 20+hp.
Sorry to hear about the pan on the 911, but not surprised. A good oil pan is a work of art, and not many really know what they're doing there. Ther are places to budget a build, and places not to skimp...to me, an oil pan is one place well worth the investment.
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi steelcomp,
The trick is to find a reasonable compromise between power and potential to expose the pump pickups. It can take a lot of work to get the oil to drain back as quickly as you want it to especially when there are cornering forces that potentially could trap oil that would normally drain back to the pan quickly. I'm sure that 28bhp is worth lowering the oil level for but how do you know if there is always going to be enough oil in the sump if you are running a wet sump withoutlowering the level until the oilpressure goes a way at high RPM high-G conditions? At least with the wet sumps you can monitor the oil tank level, with a wet sump it seems to me like you're runing the dark unless you are runing it with apan with some sort of asight port onthe pan.
In the distant past I had pick up problems with an apparently less than optimumcustomfab'ddry sump pan on a 911 that was autoX'd and later road raced andI couldn't figure out what was wrong with the oiling system when turning rightuntil we had to replace the pan with an off the shelf pandue to damage from road trash (some poor guys BBS 3-piece wheel parts!),and it went away magically. Since then I've just stayed with the parts that other people were using and I know work right. I can't afford $20K engine rebuilds anymore which is partlywhy I'm playing witha much cheaper S197GT Mustang now.
Cheers
ORIGINAL: steelcomp
You realize that I'm not talking about the sump design?
Don't take my word for the quart of oil thing...if you've never tried it, then you're just guessing. I'm not. With my last engine, a $1000 oil pan...the best made, best baffling and windage system, a quart of oil cost 28 hp. That had nothing to do with the windage tray, and that was on a dyno. Not much bouncing off the ground there.
ORIGINAL: vsop
You realize just about every performance oil pan/windage tray setup has a kick out sump design to keep the crank from getting splashed with oil. You talk like kick out is some super special high end racing thing. Most performance engines actually have stock setups that do pretty good these days.
I would be more intrested in the baffling one way flow. Starving my engine of oil on cornering or hard braking is my main focus.
I have not checked the stock windage tray & oil pan to see if dropping the oil level will really help. If it does its job then I bet you would not see much of a gain, unless you had enough power to lift the wheels off the ground
You realize just about every performance oil pan/windage tray setup has a kick out sump design to keep the crank from getting splashed with oil. You talk like kick out is some super special high end racing thing. Most performance engines actually have stock setups that do pretty good these days.
I would be more intrested in the baffling one way flow. Starving my engine of oil on cornering or hard braking is my main focus.
I have not checked the stock windage tray & oil pan to see if dropping the oil level will really help. If it does its job then I bet you would not see much of a gain, unless you had enough power to lift the wheels off the ground
Don't take my word for the quart of oil thing...if you've never tried it, then you're just guessing. I'm not. With my last engine, a $1000 oil pan...the best made, best baffling and windage system, a quart of oil cost 28 hp. That had nothing to do with the windage tray, and that was on a dyno. Not much bouncing off the ground there.
Hi steelcomp,
The trick is to find a reasonable compromise between power and potential to expose the pump pickups. It can take a lot of work to get the oil to drain back as quickly as you want it to especially when there are cornering forces that potentially could trap oil that would normally drain back to the pan quickly. I'm sure that 28bhp is worth lowering the oil level for but how do you know if there is always going to be enough oil in the sump if you are running a wet sump withoutlowering the level until the oilpressure goes a way at high RPM high-G conditions? At least with the wet sumps you can monitor the oil tank level, with a wet sump it seems to me like you're runing the dark unless you are runing it with apan with some sort of asight port onthe pan.
In the distant past I had pick up problems with an apparently less than optimumcustomfab'ddry sump pan on a 911 that was autoX'd and later road raced andI couldn't figure out what was wrong with the oiling system when turning rightuntil we had to replace the pan with an off the shelf pandue to damage from road trash (some poor guys BBS 3-piece wheel parts!),and it went away magically. Since then I've just stayed with the parts that other people were using and I know work right. I can't afford $20K engine rebuilds anymore which is partlywhy I'm playing witha much cheaper S197GT Mustang now.
Cheers
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