Okay now we're talking.

I grew up in MN so I know about the winters. I have lived in Chicago with the stang and when the stock Pirellis were new, they were alright but required a light foot and no sudden throttle changes.

I used to run Blizzaks on my audi in the winter time and they were better in the snow than the Dunlop winter sports and most other combination tire that is trying to combine some level of performance with snow traction.

I would stay with the stock width tire a 235 wide dedicated snow tire is fine, wider is not better in the snow.

Take a look on the tirerack.com for all the snow tire choices.

 

You're right. I don't know anything about chassis design, performance mods, or even how to drive on an open track. I can't even find the track on MapQuest. I don't own a Mustang, never have, and never will. I think I might be able to identify one 2 out of 3 tries. I would never try to tell you anything; because you already know everything. Your brain is already full, and there's no room for anything else.

And, you're right. You're a d*ck.

 

see - he understands now.

 

Ownership of a replicar does not necessarily imply sound comprehension of chassis engineering principles.

Nor does assembling said car, or even open-tracking it. Those experiences speak to talents that stand on their own.

A few years ago I met somebody who autocrossed and tracked a Cobra replica - and who was absolutely clueless about its underpinnings even after having the 3-link with PHB installed as an update (he was amazed by the difference with respect to the original triangulated 4-link, though). Nice enough guy, and a pretty good driver as well. Just not suspension-tech inclined. Man enough to admit it in so many words, too.

I would have expected your suggestions to be on the conservative side, given what a profile peek turns up. As you have discovered and mentioned elsewhere (Pueblo?) one needs to learn how to drive before one can drive faster. And for most people, that learning is arguably best done in a car that they're already familiar with, given good tires, dampers, alignment, and perhaps a pad upgrade. IOW, a sound baseline. Then see what actually needs fixing, which in the case of vehicle mods for any given driver and circumstances could range from nothing more to the whole nine yards.

Hell, I might as well quote most of it.

Norm

 

>> Ownership of a replicar does not necessarily imply sound comprehension of chassis engineering principles. <<

True. Just like owning a Mustang doesn't mean you know anything about drag racing. Or owning a Ferrari doesn't mean you can speak Italian.

>> I would have expected your suggestions to be on the conservative side <<

Normally, that would be true. But the OP wanted to make the car a killer track car, with little regards to the street manners. I gave my opinion on what it would take.

If you're going to make small changes to a vehicle for tuning, make the changes one at a time. Evaluate each change, and make the next small adjustment according th your last results.

If you're going to make many large changes, you're better off doing them all at once. Ofter each major change, you have a "new" car. That means you have to start the learning curve again. That's a real frustrating time waster. It would be like learning on a Mustang, and moving to a Ferrari. If you make those big changes all at once, you have a solid platform to learn on over the next 3-5 years. Then all you need to do is make small tuning adjustments based on your skills and performance.

 

.bOB,

That's as far as you need to read in order to put your replies in the appropriate context. You're attempting to help a newbie who's not ashamed to admit his status (and who deserves credit for providing that and subsequent disclosures).

The trick is in reading "my goal is to make the car handle like a race care [sic]" as being the statement of an ultimate goal rather than an immediate necessity. And to be able to put yourself back at the same point in your enthusiast driving development as he currently is in his. Sure, you may be able to spec out a setup that's faster than what he has now - and which might well be "peakier", trickier and less forgiving to drive.

Driver development really has to come first. What "equipment" mod was it that gave you those 4 - 5 seconds at Pueblo again?


Norm

 

I agree completely with this. Forget about LCAs, UCAs, and bushings. Dampers, camber plates, and a front sway bar will take you a long way. The sway bar will help flatten you out in the corners. Add a good set of springs if you want to go a bit farther.

Easy remedy: www.stranoparts.com. Call Sam, and he will transform your car.

 

>> The trick is in reading "my goal is to make the car handle like a race care [sic]" <<

Yeah, that's what he asked. And that's what I answered. I didn't try and judge his skills or motives. He asked a question, and I supplied an answer; it's that simple. A stock Mustang is nothing like a race car. It takes a lot of work and carefull thought to get it there.

As for my skills, I started out with an excellent car to begin with. All the right parts were there on a very stiff chassis. SInce then I'v been honing my skills and making small changes here and there. But all the major components are pretty much the same as they were when I started. With the exception of the Wilwood brakes; those were a recent addition based on experiances.

If the OP doesn't want to take my advise, he certainly doesn't have to. Take it or leave it. It's advice, and it's free. Worth just about as much as your advice - free. True chassis and handeling experts are people like Herb Adams and Carroll Smith. I would - and have - paid for their advice.

>> Sure, you may be able to spec out a setup that's faster than what he has now - and which might well be "peakier", trickier and less forgiving to drive. <<

A well set up suspension is easier to drive. It's notpeakier or trickier. It's stable, consistant, and repeatable. It goes where you point it and nowhere else. That's how you hit your apex every time. It gets that way be reducing flex, distortion, deflection, and pogo-ing where ever you can. Compare a new Mustang to a mid 60's car. A full on race car would have rod ends and alum bushings everywhere. There wouldn't be any rubber or poly.

 

All advice is taken and greatly appreciated. This is one reason for this great forum; to be able to ask for advice, give advice and talk mustang!! This is all useful information for me, since I am just starting with the track. Even with these 2 sessions that I have been at the track, I am getting to know more about the car and get to know the car in so many different ways. Thanks all!

 

You should have. It's irresponsible not to.

I wasn't asking what yours were, only asking you to go back in time to when they were at the OP's level. Everybody starts there.

When you're a newbie you typically don't have the expertise to sort the most applicable advice from that which . . . isn't. Your responsibility is to do at least some of that for him. Sort out the stuff that isn't needed right away. Explain the rest in your own words or recommend the appropriate book or reference thread.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm pretty sure that my grasp of vehicle dynamics is a bit stronger than yours, based on looking at a few other threads/posts.

I've got their books, too. And a whole stack more with names like Milliken, Dixon, and van Valkenburg. Your point is?

That first sentence is way too general of a statement to be very useful. It MAY be easier to drive under some conditions, or easier to drive up to some point. But it won't necessarily be better under all conditions (probably won't be if you look at the whole spectrum of driving conditions). Typically when you push all of the engineering compromises in directions to emphasize one aspect you give up something elsewhere. That's what compromise means. When you make response more linear you do get less of a "warning band" as you approach the limits. The improved linearity makes it easier to get closer to the limit, so the speed cushion against losing grip gets smaller. Tell me how that's a friendly characteristic for a newbie with an admitted penchant for too much throttle too soon. Please.

You don't appear to understand that there are situations where having certain flexibilities helps performance rather than detracts from it, particularly in a street-driven car. Stiffness is sometimes the enemy of kinematics.


Norm