Panhard Bar
11-19-2008, 09:06 AM
#11
6th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
I honestly didn't take offense to alloutt's comment. It came off kind of blunt but really there is nothing wrong with what he said and it is the truth don't you agree? 
OK so UCA, LCAs are pretty much it. I asked Brenspeed and they told me something about a "Watts Link". What the hell is that? I've never heard of it.
OK so UCA, LCAs are pretty much it. I asked Brenspeed and they told me something about a "Watts Link". What the hell is that? I've never heard of it.
11-19-2008, 09:26 AM
#12
Former Sponsor
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 167
I honestly didn't take offense to alloutt's comment. It came off kind of blunt but really there is nothing wrong with what he said and it is the truth don't you agree?
OK so UCA, LCAs are pretty much it. I asked Brenspeed and they told me something about a "Watts Link". What the hell is that? I've never heard of it.
OK so UCA, LCAs are pretty much it. I asked Brenspeed and they told me something about a "Watts Link". What the hell is that? I've never heard of it.
11-19-2008, 03:19 PM
#14
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
I don't feel that the PHB brace is in anyway needed. The stock brace is more than adequate. And frankly you can get stronger PHB's for less money than the piece you posted.
Further, a PHB or the brace will not help drag racing at all. A better PHB is some help to handling, but nowhere near a Watts link. And if you aren't lowered and don't need an adjustable PHB or Watts to align the body over the axle to counter the drop, and you really are only interested in drag racing the stock PHB is fine. Note, I said *if* those things don't apply. There is a benefit in feel and handling in a better PHB (and there are different types and some deflect more than others). And a Watts link is just 3 steps better because it eliminates some inherent geomerty issues that all PHB's have.
A Watts link is a cool part. It won't help your drag racing either, but does help the stability at the back of the car. And it is not only for road racing or autox. It helps on the street too. In fact, here's a quote from a customer, posted on another forum, who just installed one on his Bullitt:
"there is no "shifting" of the rear end when entering a curve and "setting" of the rear end when the car reaches a certain level of outward force while taking the curve. the rear of the car stays planted and inspires confidence. the car now handles the same turning right or left, and this to me was one of the main characteristics i have been looking for. i have also witnessed that curves can be taken faster than before, and the car can even accelerate through curves where the throttle had to remain steady before."
This from a man who put one on his GT500 and ran both track days, but also daily drives the car (pay attention to the last paragraph)
"Hands down, a Watts link positively improves the dynamics and handling of the car. "Dampened", "behaved", "settled" were all terms I used to describe the characteristics of a Watts link.... However, the word I used the most is "predictable." Adjusting the roll center height changes the characteristic of the car but no matter the setting, the car was predictable and controllable. What is also really important is that there was a Session 2 and Session 3. If I used a different link setup with no adjustability I still would have experienced the benefit of the a Watts, but would have not been able to explore the handling characteristics of adjustable roll center and would not have had the advantage while driving the car in Session 2. For those of you with adjustable shocks, adjustable struts, programmable chips, etc.-why would you want to bolt on a non-adjustable Watts?
Now, ignore all the on-track feedback for a moment and let's talk about commuting. My comments regarding the ride home on the public roads are the same as what I felt on the track. No, I didnŐt have to worry about front end push while turning into my driveway nor having to trail brake into Dunkin Donuts. But the rear end was no longer jumping erratically over un-even pavement and expansion joints-it was dampened, settled and predictable. My wife even noticed the improvement while riding shotgun."
Further, a PHB or the brace will not help drag racing at all. A better PHB is some help to handling, but nowhere near a Watts link. And if you aren't lowered and don't need an adjustable PHB or Watts to align the body over the axle to counter the drop, and you really are only interested in drag racing the stock PHB is fine. Note, I said *if* those things don't apply. There is a benefit in feel and handling in a better PHB (and there are different types and some deflect more than others). And a Watts link is just 3 steps better because it eliminates some inherent geomerty issues that all PHB's have.
A Watts link is a cool part. It won't help your drag racing either, but does help the stability at the back of the car. And it is not only for road racing or autox. It helps on the street too. In fact, here's a quote from a customer, posted on another forum, who just installed one on his Bullitt:
"there is no "shifting" of the rear end when entering a curve and "setting" of the rear end when the car reaches a certain level of outward force while taking the curve. the rear of the car stays planted and inspires confidence. the car now handles the same turning right or left, and this to me was one of the main characteristics i have been looking for. i have also witnessed that curves can be taken faster than before, and the car can even accelerate through curves where the throttle had to remain steady before."
This from a man who put one on his GT500 and ran both track days, but also daily drives the car (pay attention to the last paragraph)
"Hands down, a Watts link positively improves the dynamics and handling of the car. "Dampened", "behaved", "settled" were all terms I used to describe the characteristics of a Watts link.... However, the word I used the most is "predictable." Adjusting the roll center height changes the characteristic of the car but no matter the setting, the car was predictable and controllable. What is also really important is that there was a Session 2 and Session 3. If I used a different link setup with no adjustability I still would have experienced the benefit of the a Watts, but would have not been able to explore the handling characteristics of adjustable roll center and would not have had the advantage while driving the car in Session 2. For those of you with adjustable shocks, adjustable struts, programmable chips, etc.-why would you want to bolt on a non-adjustable Watts?
Now, ignore all the on-track feedback for a moment and let's talk about commuting. My comments regarding the ride home on the public roads are the same as what I felt on the track. No, I didnŐt have to worry about front end push while turning into my driveway nor having to trail brake into Dunkin Donuts. But the rear end was no longer jumping erratically over un-even pavement and expansion joints-it was dampened, settled and predictable. My wife even noticed the improvement while riding shotgun."
11-19-2008, 03:28 PM
#15
6th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
I appreciate the responses. Looks like for drag racing then the LCAs and a UCA should do it.
Maybe once I'm satisfied with the straight line performance I'll consider something like this Watts link. It's a little spendy but it looks interesting.
Maybe once I'm satisfied with the straight line performance I'll consider something like this Watts link. It's a little spendy but it looks interesting.
11-19-2008, 04:44 PM
#16
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
That's cool... but you should know that control arms, primarily the lowers effect ride and handling as well (and not always for the best).
Stock lower arms have soft bushings so they allow the axle to flex and better follow the road and bumps in it without upsetting the body too much. Some types of aftermarket arms (the type that are boxed or tubular and use poly bushings) actually limit the articulation of the rear axle because nothing wants to rotate.... Those arms are popular because they are cheaper, and they do wonders for wheelhop, but there are arms that help with the hop and that and allow better articulation at the same time.
The upper arm design doesn't matter nearly as much as it's located in the middle of the axle, and basically the axle pivots around it vs. the lower arms that are outboard and subject to a much more axle travel due to roll or one-wheel impacted bumps or dips.
And as neat as a Watts is... it should not be done before a good set of dampers (which also settle the back of the car down, a lot) because they also damp the weight of the car, which a Watts can't do.
Stock lower arms have soft bushings so they allow the axle to flex and better follow the road and bumps in it without upsetting the body too much. Some types of aftermarket arms (the type that are boxed or tubular and use poly bushings) actually limit the articulation of the rear axle because nothing wants to rotate.... Those arms are popular because they are cheaper, and they do wonders for wheelhop, but there are arms that help with the hop and that and allow better articulation at the same time.
The upper arm design doesn't matter nearly as much as it's located in the middle of the axle, and basically the axle pivots around it vs. the lower arms that are outboard and subject to a much more axle travel due to roll or one-wheel impacted bumps or dips.
And as neat as a Watts is... it should not be done before a good set of dampers (which also settle the back of the car down, a lot) because they also damp the weight of the car, which a Watts can't do.
11-19-2008, 05:11 PM
#17
6th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
11-19-2008, 05:17 PM
#18
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
That's the style that somewhat bind the axle up....
There isn't anything they give you @ $199 that you can't get for about $115. That's one of those value for money things where I see the Steeda's as overpriced. In fact for less than the cost of those arms there are a variety of arms that are adjustable, and versions that won't bind either.
There isn't anything they give you @ $199 that you can't get for about $115. That's one of those value for money things where I see the Steeda's as overpriced. In fact for less than the cost of those arms there are a variety of arms that are adjustable, and versions that won't bind either.
11-19-2008, 05:35 PM
#19
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
Riptide
I'm no expert on the 1/4 mile but from what I've learned and provided;
1) that your car is not significantly over stock horsepower
2) It is not lowered and you are not going to lower it
3) Money is not unlimited
then the best bang for the buck is a combination of the GT500 lower control arms and an aftermarket poly bushed upper control arm. Per Sam's comments, as the GT500 arms still have rubber bushings, but stiffer bushings than the stock arms, then you still get some 'flexibility as the car rolls and the axle tries to rotate slightly. The other big benefit in a DD is that the GT500 rubber bushings will not 'clunk' as poly bushings have been known to do. The Ford GT500 arms also come with new mounting hardware.
I'm seriously thinking of swapping out my Steeda adjustable LCAa's for the GT500 ones, even at my horsepower level.
I'm no expert on the 1/4 mile but from what I've learned and provided;
1) that your car is not significantly over stock horsepower
2) It is not lowered and you are not going to lower it
3) Money is not unlimited
then the best bang for the buck is a combination of the GT500 lower control arms and an aftermarket poly bushed upper control arm. Per Sam's comments, as the GT500 arms still have rubber bushings, but stiffer bushings than the stock arms, then you still get some 'flexibility as the car rolls and the axle tries to rotate slightly. The other big benefit in a DD is that the GT500 rubber bushings will not 'clunk' as poly bushings have been known to do. The Ford GT500 arms also come with new mounting hardware.
I'm seriously thinking of swapping out my Steeda adjustable LCAa's for the GT500 ones, even at my horsepower level.
11-19-2008, 05:39 PM
#20
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
A Watts link is a cool part. It won't help your drag racing either, but does help the stability at the back of the car. And it is not only for road racing or autox. It helps on the street too. In fact, here's a quote from a customer, posted on another forum, who just installed one on his Bullitt:
"there is no "shifting" of the rear end when entering a curve and "setting" of the rear end when the car reaches a certain level of outward force while taking the curve. the rear of the car stays planted and inspires confidence. the car now handles the same turning right or left, and this to me was one of the main characteristics i have been looking for. i have also witnessed that curves can be taken faster than before, and the car can even accelerate through curves where the throttle had to remain steady before."
This from a man who put one on his GT500 and ran both track days, but also daily drives the car (pay attention to the last paragraph)
"Hands down, a Watts link positively improves the dynamics and handling of the car. "Dampened", "behaved", "settled" were all terms I used to describe the characteristics of a Watts link.... However, the word I used the most is "predictable." Adjusting the roll center height changes the characteristic of the car but no matter the setting, the car was predictable and controllable. What is also really important is that there was a Session 2 and Session 3. If I used a different link setup with no adjustability I still would have experienced the benefit of the a Watts, but would have not been able to explore the handling characteristics of adjustable roll center and would not have had the advantage while driving the car in Session 2. For those of you with adjustable shocks, adjustable struts, programmable chips, etc.-why would you want to bolt on a non-adjustable Watts?
Now, ignore all the on-track feedback for a moment and let's talk about commuting. My comments regarding the ride home on the public roads are the same as what I felt on the track. No, I didnŐt have to worry about front end push while turning into my driveway nor having to trail brake into Dunkin Donuts. But the rear end was no longer jumping erratically over un-even pavement and expansion joints-it was dampened, settled and predictable. My wife even noticed the improvement while riding shotgun."
"there is no "shifting" of the rear end when entering a curve and "setting" of the rear end when the car reaches a certain level of outward force while taking the curve. the rear of the car stays planted and inspires confidence. the car now handles the same turning right or left, and this to me was one of the main characteristics i have been looking for. i have also witnessed that curves can be taken faster than before, and the car can even accelerate through curves where the throttle had to remain steady before."
This from a man who put one on his GT500 and ran both track days, but also daily drives the car (pay attention to the last paragraph)
"Hands down, a Watts link positively improves the dynamics and handling of the car. "Dampened", "behaved", "settled" were all terms I used to describe the characteristics of a Watts link.... However, the word I used the most is "predictable." Adjusting the roll center height changes the characteristic of the car but no matter the setting, the car was predictable and controllable. What is also really important is that there was a Session 2 and Session 3. If I used a different link setup with no adjustability I still would have experienced the benefit of the a Watts, but would have not been able to explore the handling characteristics of adjustable roll center and would not have had the advantage while driving the car in Session 2. For those of you with adjustable shocks, adjustable struts, programmable chips, etc.-why would you want to bolt on a non-adjustable Watts?
Now, ignore all the on-track feedback for a moment and let's talk about commuting. My comments regarding the ride home on the public roads are the same as what I felt on the track. No, I didnŐt have to worry about front end push while turning into my driveway nor having to trail brake into Dunkin Donuts. But the rear end was no longer jumping erratically over un-even pavement and expansion joints-it was dampened, settled and predictable. My wife even noticed the improvement while riding shotgun."