Hey Legion5,

Thanks for the clarification, I can see where you're coming from, and "crew chief"?...I'm blushing.

Seriously, I'm more curious now than ever. So I had the same thought that Argonaut spelled out, which is that even if you throw in fluid, you're still looking at around $450 for the basic upgrade we've been suggesting. That's a far cry from the $900 you posited (of course, perhaps your figures factor in labor, and as I recall you also included dedicated rotors).

At any rate, what catches my attention is the comparison you propose for a $1,000 difference. So let's assume $900 is fair for many folks who won't do their own labor or won't hunt around for sales, etc. Your claim is that the improvement in consistency, modulation, and control are worth the added expense (at least for a semi-seasoned track driver, I'm not talking the street here). Damn...now I'm really curious.

Worth is an elusive topic. My guess is that half the folks are going to say "That's over twice as expensive!" and half are going to say "Hey, it's only $1K more..." My point is that worth can be hard to evaluate absent first hand knowledge or specific empirically testable goals. The funny thing is that I'm in the later group of people (it's a sickness, and the undoing of many a well-laid plan).

So now I want to drive your car! I went from my first track day in bone stock trim to get a baseline (fwiw, I don't recommend it, upgrade the braking system in some way) to trying out different set ups until arriving at my current one. This is my hobby and all aspects of it are a work in progress. As Argonaut points out, you know when it is time to move on. Still, as it stands I'm happy enough with the set up (I have cooling ducts as well) to do another season on it. The improvement in consistency, bite, fade resistance, and modulation has been fantastic. Along the way I've learned and gained great experience, so I never felt it was money ill-spent. Yet I'm getting close to the end of the string here. The BBK is coming, it's part of the unfolding plan...remember the well-laid plans?

Despite this improvement (I would call it "massive"), in the end I may soon agree with you on the worth of it..."it's only $1K more"...and perhaps there really is that much more improvement available. You're messing with the plan Legion5! I have to try this for myself. So much of driving at the limit is a mental task, and certainly "confidence" in your systems plays a major role (at least for me it does). I feel very confident right now (and I think most beginners would)...but imagine what I could do being that much more confident...

Of course, all of this is predicated on what I'm looking for out of a track system. Or to make use of your much better distinction (how you drive vs. where you drive), this all rests on how I want to push the limits in my car. FWIW, I can't imagine the kind of "push the limits" you and I are talking about being done on the street (a "street-like" track, sure, but the actual street...with innocent civilians around...), I just don't see it.

Two requests:
1. Anyone in the Chicago-land, Wisconsin, Indiana area with a BBK that would let me drive it hard on a track, I would be forever grateful. I'm serious.
2. Legion5, you've thrown around some pretty low figures for a Stoptech 14" system (last I checked they were in the $2,400 range). Can you really get this kind of discount for us?

Best,
-j

 

Great thread. Probably just saved me huge money

Question...now keep in mind I know nothing and I mean NOTHING about the braking system.

I had a clutch upgrade recently and saw the transmission had a hydraulic line running to the master cylinder (I think). Does this mean the brake system shares hydraulic fluid with the clutch (5 speed)?

If so, what are the implications on my clutch if the brake fluid is changed? When changing fluid (I'd pay to have this done...just need to understand), does the clutch line need to be bled too?

Could be really stupid questions, I know. Like I said I know NOTHING about braking systems...and not much more about clutches.

 

shanec, the reservoir which holds the brake fluid is also the supplier for your clutch line. I just flushed my brake system with superblue, and wanted to flush the clutch line as well, but it looks like that is only possible if you drop the tranny. don't worry about the clutch and just flush the brake fluid from the reservoir by bleeding the brakes in this order - passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front, driver front. If you somehow discover a way to bleed the clutch system, let me know, but as far as my searches show, there is no way to do it with the tranny installed.

 

Well....it just so happens that I was already planning to upgrade my stock plastic clutch line to a FRPP steel one (supposed to make my tranny's slave cylinder more reliable after having a clutch upgrade).

In planning all this, I'll have the fluid swap done when the clutch line is upgraded....which my shop says is doable without removing the tranny, BTW.

Thanks!

 

One more question....what's the point of upgrading the brake fluid and brake lines? Not sure how this makes the car stop better.

In the case of the clutch, as I understand it, a high pressure clutch can indirectly make that plastic clutch line balloon. It can then crack and allow air to seep into the slave cylinder which is really bad.

Steel brake lines? I dunno.

 

It's interesting to me that the whole topic of unsoprung weight seemed to go right over everyone's head (mentioned about four pages ago). Unsprung weight as a braking factor is huge.

IMO there is zero need for 14" brakes on these cars except to waste money, add weight and do a lot of bragging. These aren't NASCAR short track cars.

BBK's are an excellent upgrade, as long as they don't compromise the anti locks. Depending on the system, you may end up with longer stopping distances and premature or erratic ABS function. On these cars, the anti locks are going to dictate how fast you stop. They're calibrated for a certain tire, generating a pre-determined (calculated) G force. Adding big brakes or better tires won't allow you to stop any faster than the anti locks will unless you disable them. There's good info on this in the StopTech tech.
Brakes are only a means of converting kinetic energy into heat energy through friction. If you're not generating heat, you're not stopping. The key is to manage that heat. Increasing your stopping performance means generating more heat, and BBK's are designed to handle the added heat without compromise. OEM systems, no matter what you do to improve them, aren't designed to handle the added heat that performance pads generate. Ducts help, but only to a certain extent. If you're not careful, you'll melt the plastic bearing caps out of the hubs. Big solid rotors like the GT500's are great at generating heat, but also great at retaining it. They're also fighting themselves with so much added unsprung weight they're almost counter productive, and they are absolutely counter productive to handling.

AFA "track" brakes on the street, other than pad composition, can someone tell me what a "race" brake is, and what is bad about it on the street? I have about 75K mi on a set of 13" 6 piston Wilwoods and they will take whatever I throw at them on the track, or on the street. I have stock rear calipers and Brembo slotted rotors. I can drive with 100% confidence in my brakes, no matter what. I have the Quantum race ducts on the car and have driven in both rain and dry with zero issues. I drive 140-150 mi a day with 115K mi. on my '07 and track time at Buttonwillow and Willow Springs. Granted, I pull the wheels and give everything a good inspection about every 20K mi, but yet to have a single issue.

If you're going to drive fast, you're going to need to stop. It's that simple. Confidence and comfort is a huge factor in driving fast, and having brakes that are up to your driving level is really all that matters. If you're over driving your brakes, you need to find out why. It might be time for an equipment upgrade, but I've also seen drivers that could smoke even the best brakes becuase they didn't know how to drive.
Just my observations. YMMV.

 

Agreed, but it really has more to do with the suspension than braking.

I'll agree and disagree and explain why. On the East coast tracks I ran (Summit Point Main and Shenandoah, and VIR), the stock brakes took a beating. Especially at Summit. With ducting and Motul fluid, I was still getting some fluid boiling. Other S197 drivers experienced the same the thing. Summit Main is a track with a few very hard braking zones in a row, but is only ~1:25 or so to lap it, which isn't enough time to dissipate the heat from braking. Brakes were a *constant* thought while running, particularly when you started to feel the pedal go soft towards the end of a session. A simple upgrade to the GT500 Brembos took care of the issue. Were they needed there--I would say so, or highly recommended at the least.

Now that I'm running the tracks here in California (only Willow Springs and Buttonwillow so far...), I would agree that the GT500 brakes are not necessary. These tracks are much easier on the brakes. Heck, my pads are giving twice the life it seems. Yes, it is nice having the peace of mind with the excess thermal capacity from the Brembos, but I don't feel like I'm stressing them at all. In other words, different tracks require different equipment.

If I hadn't done the upgrade, I doubt I would consider it out here. Less unsprung weight, cheaper rotors (as in $40 a pair!), and being able to run 17" tires are all huge advantages of the stock setup.

 

Interesting comments regarding east coast tracks being hard on brakes. I've only driven EC tracks, including the ones you mention and a few more. I've often wondered how to determine if a track is hard on brakes in any way other than gut feel. For example - I'd say that Shenandoah is pretty easy on brakes although it has a lot of braking points: 6 brake points, 1 tap* over 2.2 miles. On the other hand, Summit Main has fewer brake points - 4 brake points, 2 taps over 2 miles and yet I'd say its harder on brakes. Then there is NJMP Thunderbolt, with 6-7 brake points, 1-2 taps over 2.25 miles and I'd say its brutal on brakes. But I don't have any evidence to support these conclusions (like measuring pad usage or temps), other than my subjective feelings. I'd be curious to know what leads you to your conclusions - what is it about the west coast tracks that make them easier on brakes (at least the ones you've driven, i.e. its not a west coast vs east coast thing).

*I'm defining a "tap" as a short, <1 sec, application of brake used to settle the nose prior to turn in.

 

I've only driven at VIR, but my guess is that elevation change has a significant effect on brake wear. High speed downhill braking will be the hardest on your brakes.

 

Definitely not an east vs. west thing, just a track design issue. And this is must my experience on a few limited east coast tracks and west coast tracks.

I think it's a combination of there being more elevation change on the east coast tracks compared to the two I've run out here (haven't made it up to the Northern California tracks which do have more elevation change), and also longer, faster straights followed by slower speed turns.

The track designs of Summit main and VIR both had high speed straights followed by a slow speed (i.e. less than 60 MPH) turn. Summit main has the braking zone going into turn one followed shortly after by the braking zone after the chute leading into the carousel. VIR has two very high speed straights followed by some hard braking. It was more manageable, since there was more time between the hard braking zones to cool off. And I agree, the Summit Shenandoah isn't too bad, but I only ran that track twice so I don't have too many data points.

Out here, Buttonwillow (at least the configuration I've run) has what I'd consider a fairly short straight, followed by a fairly high speed wide 90 degree turn. At Big Willow, there is a higher speed straight, but again it is going into a fairly high speed wide, somewhat banked 90 degree turn. Not too bad on the brakes, and that is pretty much it for hard braking. There just aren't any braking zones where you are scrubbing 80-100 MPH going into a turn out here.

The point I can't emphasize enough is that equipment needs will be very track specific and also driver specific.