Alignment question... WARNING: MIGHT BE LONG... LOL...
11-15-2011, 10:03 PM
#1
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Temple, TX
Posts: 1,277
Alignment question... WARNING: MIGHT BE LONG... LOL...
Hey folks, let me start explaining why I went to get an alignment today.
Up until 4 days ago, I was rolling around on my ORIGINAL Pirelli P-Nero rubber. These were almost 7 years old at this point, but with only 33,5XX miles. I average 80 miles/day, 5x per week for my commute.
Well, I got a flat and it sat in the parking lot all day while at work, flat. When I got to my car, the sidewall of the flat tire was cracked bad... so bad I wouldn't feel safe driving on them. I figured all the tires were similar and opted to replace them all.
Discount Tire indicated that there was uneven wear on the outer shoulder of the tires (all of them since I rotated the tires every 5K miles) and that it was due to an alignment problem.
I was not having any problems with the car pulling and I hadn't noticed the uneven wear. I took the car in for an alignment today and these are the measurements as determined by the Eagle Eye system they used. I was sitting in the car during the alignment since I weigh close to 300lbs and wanted to be certain that I was accounted for in driving.
I have stock suspension and do not go autocrossing. What should I ideally want to see for the final measurements? I drive HWY 90% of the time. Are these final measurements good for a daily driver? I don't want to eat up my tires so I need you collective expertise.
BTW, the shop is willing to work with me and will set them where I want. If that means I need to get some CC plates to allow that I will, but that would be some time down the road, unless someone here indicates that my numbers are bad enough to warrant dropping the coin now.
Thanks,
Don
Up until 4 days ago, I was rolling around on my ORIGINAL Pirelli P-Nero rubber. These were almost 7 years old at this point, but with only 33,5XX miles. I average 80 miles/day, 5x per week for my commute.
Well, I got a flat and it sat in the parking lot all day while at work, flat. When I got to my car, the sidewall of the flat tire was cracked bad... so bad I wouldn't feel safe driving on them. I figured all the tires were similar and opted to replace them all.
Discount Tire indicated that there was uneven wear on the outer shoulder of the tires (all of them since I rotated the tires every 5K miles) and that it was due to an alignment problem.
I was not having any problems with the car pulling and I hadn't noticed the uneven wear. I took the car in for an alignment today and these are the measurements as determined by the Eagle Eye system they used. I was sitting in the car during the alignment since I weigh close to 300lbs and wanted to be certain that I was accounted for in driving.
I have stock suspension and do not go autocrossing. What should I ideally want to see for the final measurements? I drive HWY 90% of the time. Are these final measurements good for a daily driver? I don't want to eat up my tires so I need you collective expertise.
BTW, the shop is willing to work with me and will set them where I want. If that means I need to get some CC plates to allow that I will, but that would be some time down the road, unless someone here indicates that my numbers are bad enough to warrant dropping the coin now.
Thanks,
Don
11-16-2011, 01:37 AM
#2
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: OR
Posts: 312
I'm no alignment expert (having enough difficulty trying to sort out the alignment on my own car)...but I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that if you got 33.5K+ miles out of your original Pirellis you don't have ANY alignment problems ;-)
11-16-2011, 05:59 AM
#3
4th Gear Member
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Temple, TX
Posts: 1,277
I dunno... They did have some more tread left, and according to Discount Tires computers, the P-Nero's have a 45K mile tread life, so if it flat tire had not displayed the sidewall cracking (surely from the age of the tire) I probably would've have waited longer before replacing them all, opting to repair the tire with the flat.
11-16-2011, 08:26 AM
#4
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 34
I don't see why you would have outer shoulder wear since you have -1.3 camber. That is a little more than most come with stock. Is your car lowered?
The before column says you started with toe in and they have changed it to toe out. I have no idea why they would change it to toe out for a daily driver unless you told them too. I have toe out but that's because I autocross mine.
Something isn't adding up with what they told you and the alignment sheet. I would leave the camber where it is since -1.3 really isn't that much and leave the toe out since it will make the steering feel more responsive. If in the off chance the car doesn't feel as stable on the highway, have them toe it back in to about .1 total.
Bottom line is I think you are fine with that alignment. Just make sure you have enough air in your tires. I guess really low pressure could cause that shoulder wear.
The before column says you started with toe in and they have changed it to toe out. I have no idea why they would change it to toe out for a daily driver unless you told them too. I have toe out but that's because I autocross mine.
Something isn't adding up with what they told you and the alignment sheet. I would leave the camber where it is since -1.3 really isn't that much and leave the toe out since it will make the steering feel more responsive. If in the off chance the car doesn't feel as stable on the highway, have them toe it back in to about .1 total.
Bottom line is I think you are fine with that alignment. Just make sure you have enough air in your tires. I guess really low pressure could cause that shoulder wear.
Last edited by ryan1112; 11-16-2011 at 08:32 AM.
11-17-2011, 11:38 AM
#5
Cut & Paste Expert
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 13,322
The OEM front end is non-adjustable on the S197s except for the toe.
Caster and Camber is non-adjustable on the OEM Ford front end.
If you have alignment issues, you have bent frame or lower contral arm
issues. The rubber bushings do wear out and no amount of adjusting
(there is none) will fix bad rubbers.
READ ALL ABOUT IT...
An informed consumer is a happy consumer...
Caster and Camber is non-adjustable on the OEM Ford front end.
If you have alignment issues, you have bent frame or lower contral arm
issues. The rubber bushings do wear out and no amount of adjusting
(there is none) will fix bad rubbers.
READ ALL ABOUT IT...
An informed consumer is a happy consumer...
11-20-2011, 09:13 AM
#6
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
-1.3° with you sitting in it seems to be fine based on your treadwear experience so far.
It's also reasonable given that the car would not be at the same ride height with you in it as it would be for a "more normal" alignment where there is no accounting for driver or other load. To be expected, even, since camber goes more negative as the car is lowered.
Is the "uneven wear" a cupping sort of wear or is it simply that the outer shoulders are worn more than the rest of the tire? The usual causes differ, and for cupping wear I'd look to any looseness in the suspension/steering and/or bad struts. Otherwise, it would look like not having enough negative camber or too much toe in. The printout does not indicate that rear toe (out) is a problem, although that could cause the sort of wear that you describe (given your tire rotation schedule).
Out of curiosity, do you get into the throttle hard coming off a stop while also turning or other similar combinations of throttle and cornering?
Norm
It's also reasonable given that the car would not be at the same ride height with you in it as it would be for a "more normal" alignment where there is no accounting for driver or other load. To be expected, even, since camber goes more negative as the car is lowered.
Is the "uneven wear" a cupping sort of wear or is it simply that the outer shoulders are worn more than the rest of the tire? The usual causes differ, and for cupping wear I'd look to any looseness in the suspension/steering and/or bad struts. Otherwise, it would look like not having enough negative camber or too much toe in. The printout does not indicate that rear toe (out) is a problem, although that could cause the sort of wear that you describe (given your tire rotation schedule).
Out of curiosity, do you get into the throttle hard coming off a stop while also turning or other similar combinations of throttle and cornering?
Norm
11-20-2011, 09:37 AM
#7
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Temple, TX
Posts: 1,277
-1.3° with you sitting in it seems to be fine based on your treadwear experience so far.
It's also reasonable given that the car would not be at the same ride height with you in it as it would be for a "more normal" alignment where there is no accounting for driver or other load. To be expected, even, since camber goes more negative as the car is lowered.
Is the "uneven wear" a cupping sort of wear or is it simply that the outer shoulders are worn more than the rest of the tire? The usual causes differ, and for cupping wear I'd look to any looseness in the suspension/steering and/or bad struts. Otherwise, it would look like not having enough negative camber or too much toe in. The printout does not indicate that rear toe (out) is a problem, although that could cause the sort of wear that you describe (given your tire rotation schedule).
Out of curiosity, do you get into the throttle hard coming off a stop while also turning or other similar combinations of throttle and cornering?
Norm
It's also reasonable given that the car would not be at the same ride height with you in it as it would be for a "more normal" alignment where there is no accounting for driver or other load. To be expected, even, since camber goes more negative as the car is lowered.
Is the "uneven wear" a cupping sort of wear or is it simply that the outer shoulders are worn more than the rest of the tire? The usual causes differ, and for cupping wear I'd look to any looseness in the suspension/steering and/or bad struts. Otherwise, it would look like not having enough negative camber or too much toe in. The printout does not indicate that rear toe (out) is a problem, although that could cause the sort of wear that you describe (given your tire rotation schedule).
Out of curiosity, do you get into the throttle hard coming off a stop while also turning or other similar combinations of throttle and cornering?
Norm
There was no cupping, just the outer shoulders wearing, and yes, I do tend to come from a stop with just a bit of throttle...
I hope you are happy... I just had to backspace a big long sentence of how I DON'T do that and how that would be irresponsible and dangerous, but then I got to thinking and sure enough, I'm guilty as sin. Dangnabit. LOL..
How would you recommend correcting the rear toe issue? I was looking at the info posted by 157db, but it is only front specific.
Don
11-20-2011, 05:03 PM
#9
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
The amount of toe showing in the print-out does not look like enough to be concerned with, and it's toe-out anyway (which would be more apt to beat up on the inside shoulders instead).
Now if you're getting a little outside wheelspin on a launch into a turn, that would tend to beat up the outside shoulders. Don't feel so guilty about that happening that you have to edit it out of a post (but as a weird hint from the days of DOS, the 'CTRL' + 'Backspace' key combination would erase it almost faster than you can keep up).
Stick axle camber and toe can be adjusted, but the only ways I know of involve either lots of heat or lots of force. Race shops involved in circle track or road racing are the only automotive places I'd even think of trusting. An 18-wheeler truck alignment shop might be another option, but I'd bet you'd get a bunch of funny looks assuming they could even work on "car scale" jobs.
Another thing that could contribute is turning the steering wheel so abruptly that the front tires actually slide. It really is possible to dial steering in faster than the tires can keep up, even before you approach the limits of lateral tire grip.
Norm
Now if you're getting a little outside wheelspin on a launch into a turn, that would tend to beat up the outside shoulders. Don't feel so guilty about that happening that you have to edit it out of a post (but as a weird hint from the days of DOS, the 'CTRL' + 'Backspace' key combination would erase it almost faster than you can keep up).
Stick axle camber and toe can be adjusted, but the only ways I know of involve either lots of heat or lots of force. Race shops involved in circle track or road racing are the only automotive places I'd even think of trusting. An 18-wheeler truck alignment shop might be another option, but I'd bet you'd get a bunch of funny looks assuming they could even work on "car scale" jobs.
Another thing that could contribute is turning the steering wheel so abruptly that the front tires actually slide. It really is possible to dial steering in faster than the tires can keep up, even before you approach the limits of lateral tire grip.
Norm
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