Cams
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 423
From:
RE: Cams
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
You hit the nail on the head and because most of you are forgetting one of the golden dyno rules - JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES MORE HP ON THE DYNO, DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE FASTER.
Flow, torque, rev = faster
Despite even getting 40 rwhp (which I don't believe BTW), I would be more interested to see an ET slip from runs made with only the cam install as a difference.
The fastest N/A guy I know of is Ron (spyder) and he is knocking on the door of the 11's with some SERIOUS weight shaving. For the money spent on cams, I cannot stress enough it is better spent on a good P/P job on your heads.
You hit the nail on the head and because most of you are forgetting one of the golden dyno rules - JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES MORE HP ON THE DYNO, DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE FASTER.
Flow, torque, rev = faster
Despite even getting 40 rwhp (which I don't believe BTW), I would be more interested to see an ET slip from runs made with only the cam install as a difference.
The fastest N/A guy I know of is Ron (spyder) and he is knocking on the door of the 11's with some SERIOUS weight shaving. For the money spent on cams, I cannot stress enough it is better spent on a good P/P job on your heads.
Spyder, by the way, lives a country mile down the road. Ain't nobody faster N/A!
John
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 423
From:
RE: Cams
ORIGINAL: blueherd02gt
Well, there's power (Forced induction)and then there's N/A (naturally asperated)...Cams don't help if your gonna go big F/I because your stocks are almost maxed out powerband wise. fordfanboy's point was the gains of aftermarket cams don't warrant the performance or price. Ford's R/D was on point with the performance end of the cams on these cars. 40 hp is kinda low compared to other motors, but to each his own. The SOHC motor doesn't have room for improvement on the camshaft end currently (like the pushrod used to)
Well, there's power (Forced induction)and then there's N/A (naturally asperated)...Cams don't help if your gonna go big F/I because your stocks are almost maxed out powerband wise. fordfanboy's point was the gains of aftermarket cams don't warrant the performance or price. Ford's R/D was on point with the performance end of the cams on these cars. 40 hp is kinda low compared to other motors, but to each his own. The SOHC motor doesn't have room for improvement on the camshaft end currently (like the pushrod used to)
John
5th Gear Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,182
From: Tennessee
RE: Cams
Yep 
ORIGINAL: jwgroovin
Gotta ask, is that a Raptor shift light in the air vent I see in your avatar? Clever!
John
ORIGINAL: blueherd02gt
Well, there's power (Forced induction)and then there's N/A (naturally asperated)...Cams don't help if your gonna go big F/I because your stocks are almost maxed out powerband wise. fordfanboy's point was the gains of aftermarket cams don't warrant the performance or price. Ford's R/D was on point with the performance end of the cams on these cars. 40 hp is kinda low compared to other motors, but to each his own. The SOHC motor doesn't have room for improvement on the camshaft end currently (like the pushrod used to)
Well, there's power (Forced induction)and then there's N/A (naturally asperated)...Cams don't help if your gonna go big F/I because your stocks are almost maxed out powerband wise. fordfanboy's point was the gains of aftermarket cams don't warrant the performance or price. Ford's R/D was on point with the performance end of the cams on these cars. 40 hp is kinda low compared to other motors, but to each his own. The SOHC motor doesn't have room for improvement on the camshaft end currently (like the pushrod used to)
John
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,527
From:
RE: Cams
I'm an old weekend racer and motor guy, and frankly, I'm just getting a feel for these 4.6liters. The 2005 was my first and 97 my second late model Mustang (both in the last two years). Not too much lore about the S197 is available except the articles we read in the mags you mention, folks we meet in clubs or shows, and through our speed shops. My tuner, one of the guys you might have read about in MM&FF, or perhaps 5.0, thinks these motors are pretty damn good from the factory, and if you listen to him, heads are a waste on these motor as far as bang for the buck. So are delete plates and the throttle bodies. But every little bit tends to help just a bit, and some folks are content with a slow buildup, and others just dump a load of cash on a power add. I'm in the former category by preference. Anyhow, the tuner curious about the cams since he's not had an opportunity to dyno tune before and after. We'll see how that helps or hinders at the track, and make adjustments if necessary. Also note that Sutton, who you mention, have been touting the gains with cams here on the internet and also in a recent article in either 5.0 or MM&FF.
So, given those sources and the wisdom we get from them, I'm a bit confused about your response about cams being a waste on street cars, as the evidence seems to indicate there are some nominal gains to be had, although at a steep price. And the recommendation with the heads is puzzling: everything I've seen to date suggests they provide a slight 10-13hp increase. Have you seen other more interesting figures somewhere?
Just curious man...
John
So, given those sources and the wisdom we get from them, I'm a bit confused about your response about cams being a waste on street cars, as the evidence seems to indicate there are some nominal gains to be had, although at a steep price. And the recommendation with the heads is puzzling: everything I've seen to date suggests they provide a slight 10-13hp increase. Have you seen other more interesting figures somewhere?
Just curious man...
John
Most of my comments are coming from FI. Most everyone gets hooked on modding and honestly, Ron is the ONLY guy I know who stayed N/A after he started building because most realize real quick that FI is the wiser investment for the $$ to power ratio. BUT - if you know Ron, then you also know he is strongly considering building up a FI 5.4 for his car - so maybe he couldn't hold out either...lol
The moral is you are correct to a point. The heads are definitely a waste of money for N/A - I agree with your tuner but I also have been around for a little bit and have seen that 99% of anyone who start modding, ends up with FI on these cars. It's just practical and the natural order of building it up. Keeping that mind, I make my comments based on the age old rule of motor building - try to build now what can be used later. A good P/P and valvetrain will help LOADS when FI comes into play - your cams will not.
Same goes for the CMCV Deletes - they are not neccessary N/A bnut ask Justin Burcham how important they are with FI. (although most TS kits delete them anyway) The TB's out there are a joke accept for the current project from KB to develop their new GT500 2.8 kit version for the GT. When they release that, it will be a big thing.
That's why I push for the heads over cams because in the long run, you are getting better gains for your investment and buying a mod that is uselful in the long term of the build and not just the 'right now'. I also garuntee you that even though Sutton sells cams, they run the stock cams in the former record holding Vortech S197 shop car. hmm?...lol
Anyway, that's where my point is coming from. Spyder will be the first to tell you he has dropped more money into his car N/A right now to run low 12's then he would have to fgo FI and be in the low 11's - high 10-'s right now. Most poeple always talk about 'bang for the buck' - well the truth is no matter how you break it down, save your pennies, and get a FI set-up cause there is no better bang for the buck...period - and most will end up there anyway so consider that when purchasing mods.
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 423
From:
RE: Cams
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
Anyway, that's where my point is coming from. Spyder will be the first to tell you he has dropped more money into his car N/A right now to run low 12's then he would have to fgo FI and be in the low 11's - high 10-'s right now. Most poeple always talk about 'bang for the buck' - well the truth is no matter how you break it down, save your pennies, and get a FI set-up cause there is no better bang for the buck...period - and most will end up there anyway so consider that when purchasing mods.
Anyway, that's where my point is coming from. Spyder will be the first to tell you he has dropped more money into his car N/A right now to run low 12's then he would have to fgo FI and be in the low 11's - high 10-'s right now. Most poeple always talk about 'bang for the buck' - well the truth is no matter how you break it down, save your pennies, and get a FI set-up cause there is no better bang for the buck...period - and most will end up there anyway so consider that when purchasing mods.
I could write the check and dump FI into the car, but that wouldn't serve the goals I have. Can't say I WON'T at some point, but I'm having fun not doing that yet...maybe when that new Bullitt comes out next year...
John
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,090
From:
RE: Cams
Guys FordFan knows what he is talking about more than most of us. He is on the same boat as I for aftermarket cams as them being no better than stock and pathetic. He is currently one of the fastests s197 out there -.-. I do not like your opinion on the JBA shorties though, I went with Ceramic Coated Shorties because I am going turbo and you can't exactly run long tubes with a turbo unless you put it all the way in the back which is just stupid in my opinion.
Andrew
Andrew
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 272
From: leduc,alberta
RE: Cams
blueherd02gt
Do the research? Let me see we have installed almost every mod out their trying to find both good and bad results. Researchlet me see40 hrs total dyno runs we have dyno runsbefore and after each mod is this research?First engine to run both comp cam and 10"tci 3500 stall 12 more dyno hrs still fine tuning the tune. 11.68 1/4 mile yes @ 2660 ft above sea level with me driving andI normally do not run the car myself. Yes I did the research I installed a cam that comp cams that they said would increase the h.p by 10% and my results show it did not change after the tune. I can and will not believe every thing I read but I will spend a couple grand to test an item. I have spent $87,000 on this car because I like the car and it is my job to find out what works and what doesn't for my customers. To answer you question comp cams model 127150made no different in hp. on the dyno. any time you what to talk research let me know good chance we have tried it
note the 1/4" was run at 13 psi 103 octane race fuel andshift point at 6800 rpm. one time fun.
Do the research? Let me see we have installed almost every mod out their trying to find both good and bad results. Researchlet me see40 hrs total dyno runs we have dyno runsbefore and after each mod is this research?First engine to run both comp cam and 10"tci 3500 stall 12 more dyno hrs still fine tuning the tune. 11.68 1/4 mile yes @ 2660 ft above sea level with me driving andI normally do not run the car myself. Yes I did the research I installed a cam that comp cams that they said would increase the h.p by 10% and my results show it did not change after the tune. I can and will not believe every thing I read but I will spend a couple grand to test an item. I have spent $87,000 on this car because I like the car and it is my job to find out what works and what doesn't for my customers. To answer you question comp cams model 127150made no different in hp. on the dyno. any time you what to talk research let me know good chance we have tried it
note the 1/4" was run at 13 psi 103 octane race fuel andshift point at 6800 rpm. one time fun.
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 423
From:
RE: Cams
ORIGINAL: stangoil
blueherd02gt
Do the research? Let me see we have installed almost every mod out their trying to find both good and bad results. Researchlet me see40 hrs total dyno runs we have dyno runsbefore and after each mod is this research?First engine to run both comp cam and 10"tci 3500 stall 12 more dyno hrs still fine tuning the tune. 11.68 1/4 mile yes @ 2660 ft above sea level with me driving andI normally do not run the car myself. Yes I did the research I installed a cam that comp cams that they said would increase the h.p by 10% and my results show it did not change after the tune. I can and will not believe every thing I read but I will spend a couple grand to test an item. I have spent $87,000 on this car because I like the car and it is my job to find out what works and what doesn't for my customers. To answer you question comp cams model 127150made no different in hp. on the dyno. any time you what to talk research let me know good chance we have tried it
note the 1/4" was run at 13 psi 103 octane race fuel andshift point at 6800 rpm. one time fun.
blueherd02gt
Do the research? Let me see we have installed almost every mod out their trying to find both good and bad results. Researchlet me see40 hrs total dyno runs we have dyno runsbefore and after each mod is this research?First engine to run both comp cam and 10"tci 3500 stall 12 more dyno hrs still fine tuning the tune. 11.68 1/4 mile yes @ 2660 ft above sea level with me driving andI normally do not run the car myself. Yes I did the research I installed a cam that comp cams that they said would increase the h.p by 10% and my results show it did not change after the tune. I can and will not believe every thing I read but I will spend a couple grand to test an item. I have spent $87,000 on this car because I like the car and it is my job to find out what works and what doesn't for my customers. To answer you question comp cams model 127150made no different in hp. on the dyno. any time you what to talk research let me know good chance we have tried it
note the 1/4" was run at 13 psi 103 octane race fuel andshift point at 6800 rpm. one time fun.
John
4th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,005
From: Frederick, MD
RE: Cams
yea i plan on swapping the exhaust to longtube headers and an x pipe... or is h better? imo, agreeing with your on the shorties, i dont really like them anymore... haha. they provide with very minimalhp gains, if any.is it true though that you need an aftermarket exhaust or 4.10 gear ratios for stage 3 cams though???
4th Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,005
From: Frederick, MD
RE: Cams
ORIGINAL: fordfanboy
Jesus guys - stop believing everything the aftermarket companies and magazines are feeding you. [:@]
First of all, only 1 post made a reference to the clearance issues and VCT that make a larger grind difficult. This is the only reason there aren't any serious custom grinds available yet, but, trust me, there are companies working on it and there will be, but right now, all of the available cams are a joke - pure and simple. They are just about IDENTICAL grind to stock and the lift is slightly adjusted in the 'STAGES' to give lope - THAT'S IT. You are paying for a cool sound. If you're cool with that and just want the sound, then by all means, buy them and be happy but don't expect some magic to happen or expect the 3V to respond like the LS motors do with cam swaps - won't happen.
Second, the main reson for a cam swap on other motors is to increase your rpm band and flow. YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT WITH THESE STOCKERS. For all it's shortcommings in the shotblock, Ford did a great job with the cams. It, and the 8.8 rear are probably the two best parts on the car. This motor loves to spin and once you build your bottom end, spinning the stock cams up in the 7500 range is not a problem and they handle it just fine.
Most of you guys like the magazines so you'll recognize names like Justin Burcham, PowerHouse Performance, HPP Racing, Livernois Motorsports, Sutton, JDM, Lethal, David Beyer, Al Papito Racing (boss 330), Kenne Bell, ST Motorsports, etc.
Guess what? Every single one of these guys and shops are running the stock cams in their S197's. If the fastest guys in the country are all running the stock cams, then use your head - if the aftermarkets were better - don't you think they would be using them? Case closed.
Remember that dyno and especially flow benches vary drastically. A dyno doesn't mean anything. So what if you make 500 rwhp on a dyno, doesn't mean your car is fast, in fact, most guys who chase the dyno numbers...aren't.
All of the guys with aftermarket cams are just average joes on stock motors pushing maybe in the low 400 rwhp range at best. You guys don't need cams number 1, and number 2, if you got some real power (550+) you'll find out real quick why the aftermarket cams don't work as well in Higher HP applications over the stockers (for what's available now) as soon as you tried to spin them past 7K.
Forget the cams, get a good P/P job on your heads with some oversize inconel vales with titanium springs and retainers. You money is much wiser spent there IMO.
Jesus guys - stop believing everything the aftermarket companies and magazines are feeding you. [:@]
First of all, only 1 post made a reference to the clearance issues and VCT that make a larger grind difficult. This is the only reason there aren't any serious custom grinds available yet, but, trust me, there are companies working on it and there will be, but right now, all of the available cams are a joke - pure and simple. They are just about IDENTICAL grind to stock and the lift is slightly adjusted in the 'STAGES' to give lope - THAT'S IT. You are paying for a cool sound. If you're cool with that and just want the sound, then by all means, buy them and be happy but don't expect some magic to happen or expect the 3V to respond like the LS motors do with cam swaps - won't happen.
Second, the main reson for a cam swap on other motors is to increase your rpm band and flow. YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT WITH THESE STOCKERS. For all it's shortcommings in the shotblock, Ford did a great job with the cams. It, and the 8.8 rear are probably the two best parts on the car. This motor loves to spin and once you build your bottom end, spinning the stock cams up in the 7500 range is not a problem and they handle it just fine.
Most of you guys like the magazines so you'll recognize names like Justin Burcham, PowerHouse Performance, HPP Racing, Livernois Motorsports, Sutton, JDM, Lethal, David Beyer, Al Papito Racing (boss 330), Kenne Bell, ST Motorsports, etc.
Guess what? Every single one of these guys and shops are running the stock cams in their S197's. If the fastest guys in the country are all running the stock cams, then use your head - if the aftermarkets were better - don't you think they would be using them? Case closed.
Remember that dyno and especially flow benches vary drastically. A dyno doesn't mean anything. So what if you make 500 rwhp on a dyno, doesn't mean your car is fast, in fact, most guys who chase the dyno numbers...aren't.
All of the guys with aftermarket cams are just average joes on stock motors pushing maybe in the low 400 rwhp range at best. You guys don't need cams number 1, and number 2, if you got some real power (550+) you'll find out real quick why the aftermarket cams don't work as well in Higher HP applications over the stockers (for what's available now) as soon as you tried to spin them past 7K.
Forget the cams, get a good P/P job on your heads with some oversize inconel vales with titanium springs and retainers. You money is much wiser spent there IMO.
right... and the knowledge I have of cars is based on the fact that I have woofers and shorties in my sig...
a real question though, if 40 hp is minimal for stage 3 by comp cams, are you guys sayin to go to a different brand of cams? or are you saying literally that cams in general are a waste of time period...?