(need quick responses please) suspension and header questions
01-06-2009, 01:46 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: RI
Posts: 428
(need quick and quality responses please) suspension and header questions
In the near future, I plan on making some modifications to my car and have some questions regarding the different products I am looking at hoping that people amongst these forums could provide me with some aid.
MAC headers: long tube or shorty? Fast toys has all MAC exhaust parts on sale so this is what i am settling on. As far as cost, the shorty's (with no mid pipe) are cheaper than the long tubes (long tubes with matching prochamber mid-pipe) by $400 (both are ceramic coated). I have done a moderate amount of research and am under the impression that
a) shorty's increase power in low-end torque range
b) long tubes somewhat hurt low-end torque but produce more power in top end
c) long tubes are going to be slightly louder
d) long tubes are only really better if you are pushing large amounts of air through them (forced induction)
That being said, here are my goals. I hardly track the car, I hardly race it (although it would be nice to do more of both). I love the power but based on my current situation, the priority lies with sound. I currently have Boomtubes with the stock H pipe and the only "motor" work done so far is a CAI and tune. I will be (with the help of a friend or 2) doing the install myself on ramps and/or jack-stands (no lift). The money is a small issue (I would rather take the cheaper route) but if one option is going to be noticeably superior to the other, than I guess you have to roll with the punches right? Some have reported the need of poly motor mounts for any new header application, but other have reported no need, so I think I'm going to try getting away without them.
BASED ON WHAT EVERYONE ELSE KNOWS FROM EITHER READING, PRIOR KNOWLEDGE, OR EXPERIENCE, WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE INFORMATION I HAVE COME ACROSS AND WHAT ELSE COULD YOU ADD? ALSO, BASED ON MY GOALS AND SITUATION, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS? IS A CUSTOM BUILT MID-PIPE TO MATCH THE MAC LONG TUBES EASILY FEASIBLE?
On another note, I also plan on doing a suspension upgrade (shocks/struts, springs, and any other necessary parts to properly lower a mustang). I am almost definitely set on the Tokico D-Spec's with a spring that will drop the car between 1.3" and 1.5". The springs I am looking at are as follows:
Ford Racing which is said to lower 1.5" all around ($190)
Eibach Pro Kit which is said to lower 1.3" front and 1.4" rear ($210)
Two companies that I have seen sell the shocks/struts and springs in a package (Roush springs in the Stage 3 Motorsports package; 1.25" around)(Tokico springs in the D'agostino package; 1.4" front, 1.5" rear) but it would end up being cheaper to just buy the shocks/struts and springs separately (for some strange reason)
Currently, I have no suspension work done to the car and have stock C/S type wheels (polished aluminum bullitts, 18x8.5 front and rear). I would like to use the Ford Racing springs because they lower the car more and they are cheeper, but I AM WONDERING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE FORD RACING LOWERING SPRINGS; DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY FEEDBACK? I plan on purchasing a set of Eibach camber bolts to make any slight adjustments that need to be made.
I have also done some research on this subject and have learned that one cannot simply slap some springs and shocks on without making adjustments to caster/camber, pinion angle, panhard, etc. I am under the impression that a 1.5" drop is fairly aggressive and will require pinion angle adjustment (meaning adjustable upper control arm)...IS THIS DROP SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH TO WARRANT THE NEED FOR NEW CONTROL ARMS? HOW WOULD ONE GO ABOUT MEASURING THE PINION ANGLE AND ADJUSTING IT PROPERLY VIA THE ADJUSTABLE UPPER CONTROL ARMS? As far as brand of UCA, I am looking at Sphon and BMR (Sphon being cheaper by $50); WHAT WOULD BE THE BETTER UCA TO GO WITH AS FAR AS QUALITY AND EASE OF USE/INSTALLATION. I also, just the other day, read that AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR HOLDS PRIORITY OVER CONTROL ARMS; IS THIS TRUE? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PANHARD BAR WITH ROD ENDS AND ONE WITHOUT ROD ENDS? As suggested in the thread, the purchase of a panhard bar would be held off until the install of the suspension setup to see how far off the alignment has been thrown, but HOW WILL IT BE DETERMINED IF THE ALIGNMENT OF THE REAR END HAS BEEN THROWN OFF AND HOW SHOULD ADJUSTMENTS BE MADE TO CORRECT THIS?
If my memory serves me correct, the strut mounts in the GT models are constructed of plastic and need to be replaced whenever the strut is disassembled. IF THIS IS THE CASE, WHERE WOULD I GO ABOUT PURCHASING A NEW SET AND WHAT IS THE APPROXIMATE COST?
If I have missed anything or if anybody has any other questions about the same topic, feel free to chime in, as this thread hopefully could provide aid to others in my situation. Experienced guys and tech's, if you have any other input, suggestions, or need to know information pertaining to the questions I have asked or something I left out, please share it.
I am looking forward to all of the responses this thread will bring. I plan on at least making the purchase of the headers by the end of this week (as this is when the sale ends). Thank you in advance for any input anybody has.
Sharkbait20
MAC headers: long tube or shorty? Fast toys has all MAC exhaust parts on sale so this is what i am settling on. As far as cost, the shorty's (with no mid pipe) are cheaper than the long tubes (long tubes with matching prochamber mid-pipe) by $400 (both are ceramic coated). I have done a moderate amount of research and am under the impression that
a) shorty's increase power in low-end torque range
b) long tubes somewhat hurt low-end torque but produce more power in top end
c) long tubes are going to be slightly louder
d) long tubes are only really better if you are pushing large amounts of air through them (forced induction)
That being said, here are my goals. I hardly track the car, I hardly race it (although it would be nice to do more of both). I love the power but based on my current situation, the priority lies with sound. I currently have Boomtubes with the stock H pipe and the only "motor" work done so far is a CAI and tune. I will be (with the help of a friend or 2) doing the install myself on ramps and/or jack-stands (no lift). The money is a small issue (I would rather take the cheaper route) but if one option is going to be noticeably superior to the other, than I guess you have to roll with the punches right? Some have reported the need of poly motor mounts for any new header application, but other have reported no need, so I think I'm going to try getting away without them.
BASED ON WHAT EVERYONE ELSE KNOWS FROM EITHER READING, PRIOR KNOWLEDGE, OR EXPERIENCE, WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE INFORMATION I HAVE COME ACROSS AND WHAT ELSE COULD YOU ADD? ALSO, BASED ON MY GOALS AND SITUATION, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS? IS A CUSTOM BUILT MID-PIPE TO MATCH THE MAC LONG TUBES EASILY FEASIBLE?
On another note, I also plan on doing a suspension upgrade (shocks/struts, springs, and any other necessary parts to properly lower a mustang). I am almost definitely set on the Tokico D-Spec's with a spring that will drop the car between 1.3" and 1.5". The springs I am looking at are as follows:
Ford Racing which is said to lower 1.5" all around ($190)
Eibach Pro Kit which is said to lower 1.3" front and 1.4" rear ($210)
Two companies that I have seen sell the shocks/struts and springs in a package (Roush springs in the Stage 3 Motorsports package; 1.25" around)(Tokico springs in the D'agostino package; 1.4" front, 1.5" rear) but it would end up being cheaper to just buy the shocks/struts and springs separately (for some strange reason)
Currently, I have no suspension work done to the car and have stock C/S type wheels (polished aluminum bullitts, 18x8.5 front and rear). I would like to use the Ford Racing springs because they lower the car more and they are cheeper, but I AM WONDERING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE FORD RACING LOWERING SPRINGS; DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY FEEDBACK? I plan on purchasing a set of Eibach camber bolts to make any slight adjustments that need to be made.
I have also done some research on this subject and have learned that one cannot simply slap some springs and shocks on without making adjustments to caster/camber, pinion angle, panhard, etc. I am under the impression that a 1.5" drop is fairly aggressive and will require pinion angle adjustment (meaning adjustable upper control arm)...IS THIS DROP SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH TO WARRANT THE NEED FOR NEW CONTROL ARMS? HOW WOULD ONE GO ABOUT MEASURING THE PINION ANGLE AND ADJUSTING IT PROPERLY VIA THE ADJUSTABLE UPPER CONTROL ARMS? As far as brand of UCA, I am looking at Sphon and BMR (Sphon being cheaper by $50); WHAT WOULD BE THE BETTER UCA TO GO WITH AS FAR AS QUALITY AND EASE OF USE/INSTALLATION. I also, just the other day, read that AN ADJUSTABLE PANHARD BAR HOLDS PRIORITY OVER CONTROL ARMS; IS THIS TRUE? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PANHARD BAR WITH ROD ENDS AND ONE WITHOUT ROD ENDS? As suggested in the thread, the purchase of a panhard bar would be held off until the install of the suspension setup to see how far off the alignment has been thrown, but HOW WILL IT BE DETERMINED IF THE ALIGNMENT OF THE REAR END HAS BEEN THROWN OFF AND HOW SHOULD ADJUSTMENTS BE MADE TO CORRECT THIS?
If my memory serves me correct, the strut mounts in the GT models are constructed of plastic and need to be replaced whenever the strut is disassembled. IF THIS IS THE CASE, WHERE WOULD I GO ABOUT PURCHASING A NEW SET AND WHAT IS THE APPROXIMATE COST?
If I have missed anything or if anybody has any other questions about the same topic, feel free to chime in, as this thread hopefully could provide aid to others in my situation. Experienced guys and tech's, if you have any other input, suggestions, or need to know information pertaining to the questions I have asked or something I left out, please share it.
I am looking forward to all of the responses this thread will bring. I plan on at least making the purchase of the headers by the end of this week (as this is when the sale ends). Thank you in advance for any input anybody has.
Sharkbait20
Last edited by sharkbait20; 01-06-2009 at 02:02 AM.
01-06-2009, 04:38 AM
#2
Multi-Tasking Moderator!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Detroit Rock City!
Posts: 15,618
Ok I will try to answer the about which headers to get!
This is a long post!
[qoute]a) shorty's increase power in low-end torque range
b) long tubes somewhat hurt low-end torque but produce more power in top end
c) long tubes are going to be slightly louder
d) long tubes are only really better if you are pushing large amounts of air through them (forced induction)[/quote]
I agree with everything except that they are great for N/A cars too.... 2 sizes. 1 5/8 inch or 1 3/4 inch and the latter used for boosted applications. You will see more HP/TQ from a boosted application but also an increase and HP/TQ in N/A situations. I think up to 25 RWHP???? just a guess and many things factor into the gains from said mods.
For sound get the MAC LT's and like you said make sure everything is ceramic coated....it holds up much better...(unless they are made from 304SS). Most headers I have seen are coated and use 409SS and they can and will get surface rust will quickly without a coating. MAC is a great co. and I think you will be happy with the sound.
Kooks and ARH are great header companies too!
The suspension I cant help much but I have driven in a car that had the full FRPP suspension and the ride was amazing when compared to stock. You would achieve that with the other springs too but it just depends on how much drop you want..
Remember the shocks/springs are only part of the equation and the LCA's ,UCA, panhard bar, and sway bars help in the other areas as well. (I believe you stated that)
All aftermarket springs are progressive springs and I have yet to read that some broke a spring or it did not perform as they wanted it too.....thats the error of the consumer and not the spring. I would recommend either one you mentioned but have driven in and drove a car with the FRPP suspension. I loved it.....but anything is better than stock and your going to get many opinions on what others have and they can/or will be biased.
JMO hope it helps
This is a long post!
[qoute]a) shorty's increase power in low-end torque range
b) long tubes somewhat hurt low-end torque but produce more power in top end
c) long tubes are going to be slightly louder
d) long tubes are only really better if you are pushing large amounts of air through them (forced induction)[/quote]
I agree with everything except that they are great for N/A cars too.... 2 sizes. 1 5/8 inch or 1 3/4 inch and the latter used for boosted applications. You will see more HP/TQ from a boosted application but also an increase and HP/TQ in N/A situations. I think up to 25 RWHP???? just a guess and many things factor into the gains from said mods.
For sound get the MAC LT's and like you said make sure everything is ceramic coated....it holds up much better...(unless they are made from 304SS). Most headers I have seen are coated and use 409SS and they can and will get surface rust will quickly without a coating. MAC is a great co. and I think you will be happy with the sound.
Kooks and ARH are great header companies too!
The suspension I cant help much but I have driven in a car that had the full FRPP suspension and the ride was amazing when compared to stock. You would achieve that with the other springs too but it just depends on how much drop you want..
Remember the shocks/springs are only part of the equation and the LCA's ,UCA, panhard bar, and sway bars help in the other areas as well. (I believe you stated that)
All aftermarket springs are progressive springs and I have yet to read that some broke a spring or it did not perform as they wanted it too.....thats the error of the consumer and not the spring. I would recommend either one you mentioned but have driven in and drove a car with the FRPP suspension. I loved it.....but anything is better than stock and your going to get many opinions on what others have and they can/or will be biased.
JMO hope it helps
01-06-2009, 05:59 AM
#3
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Va.
Posts: 129
The FRPP lowering kit is awesome and the ride and handling is perfect. You get the camber bolts with the kit. I just got the springs and shocks/struts and the camber bolts come with the springs. I did not need a panhard bar or control arms, I even left the factory sway bars on. If your not road racing the factory sways are just fine. The ones in the kit are not that much larger. The dealer installed mine and completed an alignment front and rear. The panhard can be adjusted some. I have a staggered wheel and tire setup and my rear wheels sit perfect. I have the usual bolt ons with a dyno tune and the kit helps me put the power to the ground. I have embarrassed a few n/a and s/c cars. As far as the headers l/t sound great,I have heard all kinds of l/t and a few s/t. I like the Ford short tubes with Ford X pipe with Mac mufflers. I think that is a great set up and sounds killer. I hear the l/t do take some of your low end torque away,and if you ever get cams that again takes a little low end torque away. This is what I've heard.
01-06-2009, 12:25 PM
#4
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: RI
Posts: 428
Thanks for the two quality answers thus far! However, there are still some questions left unanswered in areas I could still use input.
BASED ON MY GOALS AND SITUATION, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS? IS A CUSTOM BUILT MID-PIPE TO MATCH THE MAC LONG TUBES EASILY FEASIBLE?
HOW WOULD ONE GO ABOUT MEASURING THE PINION ANGLE AND ADJUSTING IT PROPERLY VIA THE ADJUSTABLE UPPER CONTROL ARMS?
WHAT WOULD BE THE BETTER UCA TO GO WITH AS FAR AS QUALITY AND EASE OF USE/INSTALLATION?
HOW WILL IT BE DETERMINED IF THE ALIGNMENT OF THE REAR END HAS BEEN THROWN OFF AND HOW SHOULD ADJUSTMENTS BE MADE TO CORRECT THIS?
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PANHARD BAR WITH ROD ENDS AND ONE WITHOUT ROD ENDS?
WHERE WOULD I GO ABOUT PURCHASING A NEW SET OF STRUT MOUNTS AND WHAT IS THE APPROXIMATE COST?
Does anybody amongst us on the forums actually use a MAC header setup (long tube or shorty)? Are there any other points of view as far as the headers are concerned? And if anybody else has opinions/fact/otherwise on the need for UCA's or PHB's, etc, input would be greatly appreciated.
I will be calling BRENSPEED today to try to get some more of my questions answered, Seth is usually pretty good at that (though he must start to be getting annoyed by me haha). I will post whatever information I pick up in case anybody else can use it.
Thanks,
Sharkbait20
BASED ON MY GOALS AND SITUATION, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS? IS A CUSTOM BUILT MID-PIPE TO MATCH THE MAC LONG TUBES EASILY FEASIBLE?
HOW WOULD ONE GO ABOUT MEASURING THE PINION ANGLE AND ADJUSTING IT PROPERLY VIA THE ADJUSTABLE UPPER CONTROL ARMS?
WHAT WOULD BE THE BETTER UCA TO GO WITH AS FAR AS QUALITY AND EASE OF USE/INSTALLATION?
HOW WILL IT BE DETERMINED IF THE ALIGNMENT OF THE REAR END HAS BEEN THROWN OFF AND HOW SHOULD ADJUSTMENTS BE MADE TO CORRECT THIS?
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PANHARD BAR WITH ROD ENDS AND ONE WITHOUT ROD ENDS?
WHERE WOULD I GO ABOUT PURCHASING A NEW SET OF STRUT MOUNTS AND WHAT IS THE APPROXIMATE COST?
Does anybody amongst us on the forums actually use a MAC header setup (long tube or shorty)? Are there any other points of view as far as the headers are concerned? And if anybody else has opinions/fact/otherwise on the need for UCA's or PHB's, etc, input would be greatly appreciated.
I will be calling BRENSPEED today to try to get some more of my questions answered, Seth is usually pretty good at that (though he must start to be getting annoyed by me haha). I will post whatever information I pick up in case anybody else can use it.
Thanks,
Sharkbait20
01-06-2009, 01:11 PM
#5
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
I wouldn't be thinking about a UCA until I'd driven it a bit and found that there was a wheel hop issue I couldn't drive around (with maybe LCAs). None of the UCAs are going to be particularly easy to install, so unless it really is "broken" as far as wheel hop control under your driving conditions is concerned, there's no need to try to "fix" it. If you're not into racing the car, it probably isn't worth the effort unless you need to be able to brag about having it.
The rear axle being "thrown off" sort of depends on whether you mean visually or with respect to the chassis. It's possible to be "off" visually but not mechanically due to cars not always being perfectly symmetrical (build tolerances). Visually, you can check with a plumb bob or a carpenter's level and the car on level pavement. Mechanically, you need to measure from various reference holes underneath and probably do some math.
Stiffer and somewhat better location happens as you go from OE rubber to poly/poly to rod/poly to full rod-ended for any of the links that locate the rear axle. LCAs, UCA, PHB. So does more noise/vibration/harshness, and some adverse effects of most poly bushings (that are generally mild under most normal DD conditions).
Norm
The rear axle being "thrown off" sort of depends on whether you mean visually or with respect to the chassis. It's possible to be "off" visually but not mechanically due to cars not always being perfectly symmetrical (build tolerances). Visually, you can check with a plumb bob or a carpenter's level and the car on level pavement. Mechanically, you need to measure from various reference holes underneath and probably do some math.
Stiffer and somewhat better location happens as you go from OE rubber to poly/poly to rod/poly to full rod-ended for any of the links that locate the rear axle. LCAs, UCA, PHB. So does more noise/vibration/harshness, and some adverse effects of most poly bushings (that are generally mild under most normal DD conditions).
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 01-06-2009 at 01:17 PM.
01-06-2009, 01:27 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: RI
Posts: 428
Ok, I just got off of the phone with Seth at BRENSPEED and here is what he has shared with me.
Shorty headers are basically a waste of time and money BECAUSE if you are going to take the time/money for the install, you might as well install the Long Tubes due to the greater power potential.
Motor mounts are not needed and if possible, are even avoidable due to the increased vibration having negative drawbacks; clearance should not be an issue with the MAC headers or ANY of the headers BRENSPEED sells for that matter.
BRENSPEED price matches their competitors, but even better, their prices are already even lower than most competitors ($699 for a MAC long tube header kit including the ceramic coated headers, prochamber mid pipe, MIL eliminators, and a re-tune).
Ford Racing's springs are top quality and will match well with the D-Specs. Caster/Camber, Pinion Angle, and Rear End Alignment are all things that should be corrected however, Caster/Camber and Rear End Alignment are the priorities. Seth suggested a BMR or Steeda adjustable panhard bar (without rod ends - this should be used only for race applications due to the added stiffness) and although camber bolts would work, it would be more beneficial to pick up a set of Steeda Heavy Duty Strut Mounts because A) it allows for adjustment of camber and B) replaces the plastic "one time use" strut mounts provided by Ford from the factory. Pinion angle SHOULD be corrected by means of either adjustable UCA's or LCA's (or both), BUT it is not necessary if your car is not being driven to its limits.
If anybody else has any other questions or input, it is still appreciated and welcome. I would like to thank Seth at BRENSPEED as well as the three previous posters and whomever wrote in the other threads i have picked some stuff up from.
Sharkbait20
Shorty headers are basically a waste of time and money BECAUSE if you are going to take the time/money for the install, you might as well install the Long Tubes due to the greater power potential.
Motor mounts are not needed and if possible, are even avoidable due to the increased vibration having negative drawbacks; clearance should not be an issue with the MAC headers or ANY of the headers BRENSPEED sells for that matter.
BRENSPEED price matches their competitors, but even better, their prices are already even lower than most competitors ($699 for a MAC long tube header kit including the ceramic coated headers, prochamber mid pipe, MIL eliminators, and a re-tune).
Ford Racing's springs are top quality and will match well with the D-Specs. Caster/Camber, Pinion Angle, and Rear End Alignment are all things that should be corrected however, Caster/Camber and Rear End Alignment are the priorities. Seth suggested a BMR or Steeda adjustable panhard bar (without rod ends - this should be used only for race applications due to the added stiffness) and although camber bolts would work, it would be more beneficial to pick up a set of Steeda Heavy Duty Strut Mounts because A) it allows for adjustment of camber and B) replaces the plastic "one time use" strut mounts provided by Ford from the factory. Pinion angle SHOULD be corrected by means of either adjustable UCA's or LCA's (or both), BUT it is not necessary if your car is not being driven to its limits.
If anybody else has any other questions or input, it is still appreciated and welcome. I would like to thank Seth at BRENSPEED as well as the three previous posters and whomever wrote in the other threads i have picked some stuff up from.
Sharkbait20
Last edited by sharkbait20; 01-06-2009 at 01:30 PM.
01-07-2009, 05:28 AM
#7
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Va.
Posts: 129
I do not have any wheel hop at all and I'm using the FRPP lowering kit. Everything was installed by the FRPP dealer. No issues,drives great and no problems with the rear wheels being off set. Its not an aggressive drop and its the perfect drop to fix the wheel gap. I don't drag race or road course race either. The kit is nice and backed by Ford. I will tell you I have been in other lowered cars and some with less than a 1000 miles and they make the thunk noise or squeak.
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