Cam ?s
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
This is completely and totally inaccurate. Not only are there pretty significant gains to be had from cams on a n/a car (both stage 1 and stage 2) but there are MAJOR gains to be had with a cam on a FI car. And saying that supercharging a 2v won't make up for the restrictive heads... I just don't even know what to say. I guess adding 140 WHP with nothing more than 10 PSI of boost doesn't make up for it?!?!?!
I am making, on average, about 30 more WHP than a boltons only/10 PSI vortech car. THIRTY horsepower from a stage 2 N/A camalone on a blower car with stockheads. A N/A cam! Not only that, but the car is tuned VERY conservative, something like 11.4:1 a/f ratio. With a simple plug in of the SCT I guarente theres another 10-15+ WHP in it.
Not only that, but I made something like 20 peak horsepower and 30 horsepower at redlinebefore the blower,comparingjust boltons to boltons + cams. And that was with a TOTAL **** tune from a shop that had absolutly NO idea what they were doing when tuning a mod motor.
You keep repeating that its dumb to run a stage 2 on stock heads, and you are still wrong. You do NOT have to do any headwork to run a stage 2 cam. I guarentee you if I could find and post 10 different dyno sheets, 5 with stage 1 and 5 with stage 2 cams, all on stock heads, you could not tell a signifcant difference (aka point them all out accuratly).
The stage 2 cams are not that much more agressive than the 1s. The head flow is not the major problem with going with a stage 2 cam... the problem is that the engine cannot support the FULL rpm potential of the stage 2 cams... but it still makes much more power than a stock cam, and slightly more peak/redline power than a stage 1 cam. The only advantage to going with a stage 1 cam is that it will lose less TQ down low (about 5 ft/lbs) and it will start picking up horsepower maybe 200-400 RPM before a stage 2 cam.
Edit; Another nail in the coffin?? MPH has SEVERAL 550 plus WHP cars with STOCK heads and stock intake, just a aftermarket shortblock + custom ground cams + boltons (and a blower). The best one I have seen so far had a Novi 2000 with a custom FMIC making 60x to the tire on the stock heads/intake manifold.
The heads aren't anything to write home about, but you can get around spending 1300+ bucks on them with the right setup. Not only that, but if it comes down to changing out the heads or the cams on a boltons only car, I am all for the cams all the way. Your going to see gains of maybe 20-25 WHP with a set of cams on a bolton only car, maybe 280-290 WHP. The most I have ever seen on a ported heads/cams/boltons car was in the 310 range. 20 horsepower isn't worth 1400+ bucks plus install plus gaskets and other crap. Without changing the cams at the same time I doubt you would make even 20 WHP with just heads.
Why is this all true? because even with the best ported 2v PI head you can buy your still only flowing around 230ish CFM. If they could make a 300 CFM@.600 lift head for the 2v then we would be talking... but they can't/don't. Simply put, even the ported 2v heads flow like **** compared to a good aftermarket head for almost any other engine.
I tell you the best part... the first thing the guy that owns the dyno shop I used said after my first run was, and I am quoting here, "Man, that blower REALLY loves them cams".
ORIGINAL: ben790450
Ok you called me out so here i go.
Becuase my friend the intake manifold and the exhaust IS NOT the restriction on a 4.6. Its the heads. You could have 4" runners on your intake manifold and 5" exhaust from the engine back and you still would have shiit for flow. Your heads are the bottle neck. Im going to use my straw analagy once again to explain this. If you have a tiny straw and you increase to big pieces of staws on both ends you arent really gonna flow more air. . . . You can blow through that straw (supercharging) but the static pressure is gonna be a b*tch and you still have that restriction. The only way to get past that restriction is to get a bigger straw in place of the little straw. Your heads are that straw. Before i became a firefighter i was an HVAC tech for 6 years. . . so i did nothing but take classes on air flow and air physic and thermodynamics. But its simple. Everyone knows that our stock heads suck on these cars. Thats why they made the 4v. To bypass the shiity 2v heads. The only way to get past the REAL restriction on 2v 4.6 modular motors is to replace the heads. End of story. Supercharging wont get past that restriction it'll just increase the static pressure of the shiity straw. You want real results ppl then change your heads and THEN supercharge. Ok well that was a tangit but still. You CAN run stage 2 cams on stock heads. But its a really dumb idea becuase the cams are requiring more air and fuel . . . and the engine CAN'T deliver that air. . .
Ok you called me out so here i go.
Becuase my friend the intake manifold and the exhaust IS NOT the restriction on a 4.6. Its the heads. You could have 4" runners on your intake manifold and 5" exhaust from the engine back and you still would have shiit for flow. Your heads are the bottle neck. Im going to use my straw analagy once again to explain this. If you have a tiny straw and you increase to big pieces of staws on both ends you arent really gonna flow more air. . . . You can blow through that straw (supercharging) but the static pressure is gonna be a b*tch and you still have that restriction. The only way to get past that restriction is to get a bigger straw in place of the little straw. Your heads are that straw. Before i became a firefighter i was an HVAC tech for 6 years. . . so i did nothing but take classes on air flow and air physic and thermodynamics. But its simple. Everyone knows that our stock heads suck on these cars. Thats why they made the 4v. To bypass the shiity 2v heads. The only way to get past the REAL restriction on 2v 4.6 modular motors is to replace the heads. End of story. Supercharging wont get past that restriction it'll just increase the static pressure of the shiity straw. You want real results ppl then change your heads and THEN supercharge. Ok well that was a tangit but still. You CAN run stage 2 cams on stock heads. But its a really dumb idea becuase the cams are requiring more air and fuel . . . and the engine CAN'T deliver that air. . .
I am making, on average, about 30 more WHP than a boltons only/10 PSI vortech car. THIRTY horsepower from a stage 2 N/A camalone on a blower car with stockheads. A N/A cam! Not only that, but the car is tuned VERY conservative, something like 11.4:1 a/f ratio. With a simple plug in of the SCT I guarente theres another 10-15+ WHP in it.
Not only that, but I made something like 20 peak horsepower and 30 horsepower at redlinebefore the blower,comparingjust boltons to boltons + cams. And that was with a TOTAL **** tune from a shop that had absolutly NO idea what they were doing when tuning a mod motor.
You keep repeating that its dumb to run a stage 2 on stock heads, and you are still wrong. You do NOT have to do any headwork to run a stage 2 cam. I guarentee you if I could find and post 10 different dyno sheets, 5 with stage 1 and 5 with stage 2 cams, all on stock heads, you could not tell a signifcant difference (aka point them all out accuratly).
The stage 2 cams are not that much more agressive than the 1s. The head flow is not the major problem with going with a stage 2 cam... the problem is that the engine cannot support the FULL rpm potential of the stage 2 cams... but it still makes much more power than a stock cam, and slightly more peak/redline power than a stage 1 cam. The only advantage to going with a stage 1 cam is that it will lose less TQ down low (about 5 ft/lbs) and it will start picking up horsepower maybe 200-400 RPM before a stage 2 cam.
Edit; Another nail in the coffin?? MPH has SEVERAL 550 plus WHP cars with STOCK heads and stock intake, just a aftermarket shortblock + custom ground cams + boltons (and a blower). The best one I have seen so far had a Novi 2000 with a custom FMIC making 60x to the tire on the stock heads/intake manifold.
The heads aren't anything to write home about, but you can get around spending 1300+ bucks on them with the right setup. Not only that, but if it comes down to changing out the heads or the cams on a boltons only car, I am all for the cams all the way. Your going to see gains of maybe 20-25 WHP with a set of cams on a bolton only car, maybe 280-290 WHP. The most I have ever seen on a ported heads/cams/boltons car was in the 310 range. 20 horsepower isn't worth 1400+ bucks plus install plus gaskets and other crap. Without changing the cams at the same time I doubt you would make even 20 WHP with just heads.
Why is this all true? because even with the best ported 2v PI head you can buy your still only flowing around 230ish CFM. If they could make a 300 CFM@.600 lift head for the 2v then we would be talking... but they can't/don't. Simply put, even the ported 2v heads flow like **** compared to a good aftermarket head for almost any other engine.
I tell you the best part... the first thing the guy that owns the dyno shop I used said after my first run was, and I am quoting here, "Man, that blower REALLY loves them cams".
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: 01GT4.6
wow someone else in a disagreement with ben790450 besides me....
wow someone else in a disagreement with ben790450 besides me....
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
But please do me a favor. Call 519-245-1164 right now and ask VT what kind of heads stage 2 cams are intendend and made for. . . Becuase EVERY cam company i have talked to, including VT where i got my cams, said that it is critical that you run aftermarket heads with stage 2 cams. So just call him and that'll end it all bro. Go for it! Put stage 2 cams on ur car with stock heads! Im sure you'll make A LITTLE more power with them. . . but why when you could just get stage 1 cams and probably make the same numbers. . . Its like running 91 octane fuel when you only need 87.
6th Gear Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,726
From: Slidell, Louisiana
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: ben790450
So smart @$$ you disagree that the heads on a 4.6 2v mod motor are the most restrictive part? Becuase that was what my whole rant was about. So tell me, since you're you seem to know so much more than me that you feel it nessicary to critize me. Correct me! Feel free! Thats why we have these forums. . . . or are you just hiding behind 2000's statemet? If you yourself have the knowledge to correct me. . . then feel free. But i dont hear you saying anything usefull. Which 2000 didn't really add anything he just ripped on me and told me stuff i already know. . .so i dont really understand his point. . .
ORIGINAL: 01GT4.6
wow someone else in a disagreement with ben790450 besides me....
wow someone else in a disagreement with ben790450 besides me....
you act like you know so much **** but have yet to prove your point, even when I asked so many times in the previous thread. So lets go back why is the pi intake such a piece of **** and show me how much gains you had with the Typhoon. If you are going to start ****, be able to back it up with some facts. So why don't you go back to the other thread and post up before and after dyno sheets of your car w/ the Typhoon like I asked nicely for and quit acting like a little bitch all the time.
Peace
Mustang Nazi
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,444
From: Texas, baby
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: Silver2000stang
mitch, your opinion?
and stangman, call vt, dont be shy, scott is always willing to help and you will get great advice. you can hear what i said from the horses mouth
mitch, your opinion?
and stangman, call vt, dont be shy, scott is always willing to help and you will get great advice. you can hear what i said from the horses mouth
This type of question can be directed towards alot of mods and supporting mods. This is what magazines and performance parts manufacturers thrive on about advertised power increases.
The key is to do alot of research on mods and remember that for everything you change, you need to also look at surrounding parts that are related. Does that make sense?