Cam ?s
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 215
From: CT
RE: Cam ?s
ya i did a lot of calling and research and am going with vt stage 2 cams along with having my heads P&P by a local performance shop. tuners suggested that along with scott. as soon as i mentioned P&P he stopped my sentence and said stage 2 lol
6th Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,575
From: United States
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: ben790450
Ok you called me out so here i go.
Becuase my friend the intake manifold and the exhaust IS NOT the restriction on a 4.6. Its the heads. You could have 4" runners on your intake manifold and 5" exhaust from the engine back and you still would have shiit for flow. Your heads are the bottle neck. Im going to use my straw analagy once again to explain this. If you have a tiny straw and you increase to big pieces of staws on both ends you arent really gonna flow more air. . . . You can blow through that straw (supercharging) but the static pressure is gonna be a b*tch and you still have that restriction. The only way to get past that restriction is to get a bigger straw in place of the little straw. Your heads are that straw. Before i became a firefighter i was an HVAC tech for 6 years. . . so i did nothing but take classes on air flow and air physic and thermodynamics. But its simple. Everyone knows that our stock heads suck on these cars. Thats why they made the 4v. To bypass the shiity 2v heads. The only way to get past the REAL restriction on 2v 4.6 modular motors is to replace the heads. End of story. Supercharging wont get past that restriction it'll just increase the static pressure of the shiity straw. You want real results ppl then change your heads and THEN supercharge. Ok well that was a tangit but still. You CAN run stage 2 cams on stock heads. But its a really dumb idea becuase the cams are requiring more air and fuel . . . and the engine CAN'T deliver that air. . .
Ok you called me out so here i go.
Becuase my friend the intake manifold and the exhaust IS NOT the restriction on a 4.6. Its the heads. You could have 4" runners on your intake manifold and 5" exhaust from the engine back and you still would have shiit for flow. Your heads are the bottle neck. Im going to use my straw analagy once again to explain this. If you have a tiny straw and you increase to big pieces of staws on both ends you arent really gonna flow more air. . . . You can blow through that straw (supercharging) but the static pressure is gonna be a b*tch and you still have that restriction. The only way to get past that restriction is to get a bigger straw in place of the little straw. Your heads are that straw. Before i became a firefighter i was an HVAC tech for 6 years. . . so i did nothing but take classes on air flow and air physic and thermodynamics. But its simple. Everyone knows that our stock heads suck on these cars. Thats why they made the 4v. To bypass the shiity 2v heads. The only way to get past the REAL restriction on 2v 4.6 modular motors is to replace the heads. End of story. Supercharging wont get past that restriction it'll just increase the static pressure of the shiity straw. You want real results ppl then change your heads and THEN supercharge. Ok well that was a tangit but still. You CAN run stage 2 cams on stock heads. But its a really dumb idea becuase the cams are requiring more air and fuel . . . and the engine CAN'T deliver that air. . .
The reality is that the 2v heads ARE crap, and no doubt the most restrictive part of the setup. but even on a ported head with a stock cam the heads are STILL the most restrictive part of the setup. There is no way you can get around this problem, simply because there are NO aftermarket 2v heads offered as of yet, and all of the ported/worked stock casting heads flow around 230ish CFM which is still total crap.
Ok buddy boy you pulled most of that out of your @$$. I never said cam's weren't good on any other cars. Every moron knows cams are great on S/c and n/a and every other car. Idk where you got the idea that i dont like cams. Also use a little science when you think about this. Supercharger WILL ADD POWER. Its called static pressure, like i said. It increases the pressure but the resistance is NOT less. You're still going through the same space. Tell me why a supercharged car with aftermarket heads makes more power than a supercharged car with stock heads. Huh maybe its becuase of the exact same thing i was talking about. Idk where you got all this from. My whole rant was just to say that heads are the biggest restriction on a car and stage 2 cams will do MUCH MUCH better on a car with aftermarket heads, like they were intended to. Not that they wont make power on stock heads but they're not intended to work with stock heads. . . Also i never said that you can't make power without a head swap. I never said that ported heads are God's gift to mustang. ALL I SAID WAS THAT THE HEADS ON A 4.6 2V MODULAR MOTOR ARE THE MOST RESTRICTIVE PART OF THE MOTOR!!! Doesnt mean that if i slap on a 200 shot of n20 of supercharge a 4.6 with stock heads i wont make power. So i dont really understand what you're bashing me for???? Please go back and re-read what i said and then write something new up that is a little more relevent.
Simply put, it is not a correct statement to say that you cannot/should not run a stage2 cam on a stock head car. the heads are not the issue with running a stage 2 cam, RPM is. Even with this being true, I still say that if 10 diffent dyno sheets were thrown before you, all with stock heads, you could not tell me which 5 were stage 1 and which were stage 2 cammed cars. The differences on a bolton only n/a car are simply not that extreme... its hard to even notice on a dyno sheet.
Were talking a 5-8 WHP/WTQ difference at ANY point in the RPM curve here, at BEST. When I did my stage 2 cams dyno there had to have been at least another 3-5 forum members doing the same thing (stage 1 or two) and the dyno sheets all looked almost exactly the same. Your simply overstating the problem.
And BTW, I wouldn't exactly trust everything you hear from people on the phone at VT or anywhere else. When ordering my cam, I was told that I would have no problems running almost any configuration (FI or n/a) with the stage 2 cam regardless of horsepower, and that I could also run a blower cam with almost the same n/a results as the n/a cam... and we all know that both of those statements are untrue.
Little known fact? VT isn't even owned by the same people it was orginally owned by. I spent over 2 months just trying to get my cams from them when they went thru the changeover process... so what leads you to beileve that the people that acutally designed the cams even work there anymore?
6th Gear Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,726
From: Slidell, Louisiana
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: code3GT
Back on topic, guys.
Back on topic, guys.
xoxoxo
me
6th Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,575
From: United States
RE: Cam ?s
I just want to point out that I am not "bashing" anyone at all. However, when misinformation, intentional or not, is being posted it needs to be pointed out.
Like it or not, the post that was quoted is telling the OP that he should skip the cams and go for heads. this is pretty obvious by this quote:
Regardless of your intent, this is the result. We have to be careful about what is posted in the tech section, some people don't have any other good sources of information.
I have been in the terrible postion of buying parts that I should not have bought because I had little/no other information to go on but what was posted on this forum. There are people (like me) that live in areas with almost no support for mustangs (or performance) and have to use the internet for information. When I just started out, I had little recorse but to ask questions on the internet and hope they were correct.
Lets just be careful about the tech advice posted, and make sure we make our points clearly. Nothing sucks worse than giving someone bad advice that costs them money... well except for being the person that took the advice.
Like it or not, the post that was quoted is telling the OP that he should skip the cams and go for heads. this is pretty obvious by this quote:
So there is nothing to do except change heads huh? What about the patriot performance stage 2 heads anybody have them?
As far as the drive shaft goes yes I could tell a dif. less spinning weight = more power whenI redo my tranny and clutch I'mputting in a alumfly wheel free up ponies there also.
As far as the drive shaft goes yes I could tell a dif. less spinning weight = more power whenI redo my tranny and clutch I'mputting in a alumfly wheel free up ponies there also.
I have been in the terrible postion of buying parts that I should not have bought because I had little/no other information to go on but what was posted on this forum. There are people (like me) that live in areas with almost no support for mustangs (or performance) and have to use the internet for information. When I just started out, I had little recorse but to ask questions on the internet and hope they were correct.
Lets just be careful about the tech advice posted, and make sure we make our points clearly. Nothing sucks worse than giving someone bad advice that costs them money... well except for being the person that took the advice.
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: 01GT4.6
I just think you are an a$$hole, that's all. To me you are a young (21year old) punk that think he knows everything and wants to start a fvcking debatewith everyone. Your 2nd post here was about someone calling you out, where was the call out? And the part about someone else having a disagreement with you besides me... maybe you forgot this thread https://mustangforums.com/m_3817536/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm
you act like you know so much **** but have yet to prove your point, even when I asked so many times in the previous thread. So lets go back why is the pi intake such a piece of **** and show me how much gains you had with the Typhoon. If you are going to start ****, be able to back it up with some facts. So why don't you go back to the other thread and post up before and after dyno sheets of your car w/ the Typhoon like I asked nicely for and quit acting like a little bitch all the time.
Peace
ORIGINAL: ben790450
So smart @$$ you disagree that the heads on a 4.6 2v mod motor are the most restrictive part? Becuase that was what my whole rant was about. So tell me, since you're you seem to know so much more than me that you feel it nessicary to critize me. Correct me! Feel free! Thats why we have these forums. . . . or are you just hiding behind 2000's statemet? If you yourself have the knowledge to correct me. . . then feel free. But i dont hear you saying anything usefull. Which 2000 didn't really add anything he just ripped on me and told me stuff i already know. . .so i dont really understand his point. . .
ORIGINAL: 01GT4.6
wow someone else in a disagreement with ben790450 besides me....
wow someone else in a disagreement with ben790450 besides me....
you act like you know so much **** but have yet to prove your point, even when I asked so many times in the previous thread. So lets go back why is the pi intake such a piece of **** and show me how much gains you had with the Typhoon. If you are going to start ****, be able to back it up with some facts. So why don't you go back to the other thread and post up before and after dyno sheets of your car w/ the Typhoon like I asked nicely for and quit acting like a little bitch all the time.
Peace
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
The bold parts are where you basically say that it is completely worthless to run a stage 2 cam on a stock head car, and that supercharing will not overcome the problems with the 2v heads.
The reality is that the 2v heads ARE crap, and no doubt the most restrictive part of the setup. but even on a ported head with a stock cam the heads are STILL the most restrictive part of the setup. There is no way you can get around this problem, simply because there are NO aftermarket 2v heads offered as of yet, and all of the ported/worked stock casting heads flow around 230ish CFM which is still total crap.
Your simply overstating the importance of putting the aftermarket heads that are availble on the car. The heads alone will not offer gains that are that signficiant, and without a cam swap will offer even less. This would not be true if someone would offer an acutally decent flowing ported setup. It sucks for you, me, and everyone else with a 2v but they dont.
Simply put, it is not a correct statement to say that you cannot/should not run a stage2 cam on a stock head car. the heads are not the issue with running a stage 2 cam, RPM is. Even with this being true, I still say that if 10 diffent dyno sheets were thrown before you, all with stock heads, you could not tell me which 5 were stage 1 and which were stage 2 cammed cars. The differences on a bolton only n/a car are simply not that extreme... its hard to even notice on a dyno sheet.
Were talking a 5-8 WHP/WTQ difference at ANY point in the RPM curve here, at BEST. When I did my stage 2 cams dyno there had to have been at least another 3-5 forum members doing the same thing (stage 1 or two) and the dyno sheets all looked almost exactly the same. Your simply overstating the problem.
And BTW, I wouldn't exactly trust everything you hear from people on the phone at VT or anywhere else. When ordering my cam, I was told that I would have no problems running almost any configuration (FI or n/a) with the stage 2 cam regardless of horsepower, and that I could also run a blower cam with almost the same n/a results as the n/a cam... and we all know that both of those statements are untrue.
Little known fact? VT isn't even owned by the same people it was orginally owned by. I spent over 2 months just trying to get my cams from them when they went thru the changeover process... so what leads you to beileve that the people that acutally designed the cams even work there anymore?
ORIGINAL: ben790450
Ok you called me out so here i go.
Becuase my friend the intake manifold and the exhaust IS NOT the restriction on a 4.6. Its the heads. You could have 4" runners on your intake manifold and 5" exhaust from the engine back and you still would have shiit for flow. Your heads are the bottle neck. Im going to use my straw analagy once again to explain this. If you have a tiny straw and you increase to big pieces of staws on both ends you arent really gonna flow more air. . . . You can blow through that straw (supercharging) but the static pressure is gonna be a b*tch and you still have that restriction. The only way to get past that restriction is to get a bigger straw in place of the little straw. Your heads are that straw. Before i became a firefighter i was an HVAC tech for 6 years. . . so i did nothing but take classes on air flow and air physic and thermodynamics. But its simple. Everyone knows that our stock heads suck on these cars. Thats why they made the 4v. To bypass the shiity 2v heads. The only way to get past the REAL restriction on 2v 4.6 modular motors is to replace the heads. End of story. Supercharging wont get past that restriction it'll just increase the static pressure of the shiity straw. You want real results ppl then change your heads and THEN supercharge. Ok well that was a tangit but still. You CAN run stage 2 cams on stock heads. But its a really dumb idea becuase the cams are requiring more air and fuel . . . and the engine CAN'T deliver that air. . .
Ok you called me out so here i go.
Becuase my friend the intake manifold and the exhaust IS NOT the restriction on a 4.6. Its the heads. You could have 4" runners on your intake manifold and 5" exhaust from the engine back and you still would have shiit for flow. Your heads are the bottle neck. Im going to use my straw analagy once again to explain this. If you have a tiny straw and you increase to big pieces of staws on both ends you arent really gonna flow more air. . . . You can blow through that straw (supercharging) but the static pressure is gonna be a b*tch and you still have that restriction. The only way to get past that restriction is to get a bigger straw in place of the little straw. Your heads are that straw. Before i became a firefighter i was an HVAC tech for 6 years. . . so i did nothing but take classes on air flow and air physic and thermodynamics. But its simple. Everyone knows that our stock heads suck on these cars. Thats why they made the 4v. To bypass the shiity 2v heads. The only way to get past the REAL restriction on 2v 4.6 modular motors is to replace the heads. End of story. Supercharging wont get past that restriction it'll just increase the static pressure of the shiity straw. You want real results ppl then change your heads and THEN supercharge. Ok well that was a tangit but still. You CAN run stage 2 cams on stock heads. But its a really dumb idea becuase the cams are requiring more air and fuel . . . and the engine CAN'T deliver that air. . .
The reality is that the 2v heads ARE crap, and no doubt the most restrictive part of the setup. but even on a ported head with a stock cam the heads are STILL the most restrictive part of the setup. There is no way you can get around this problem, simply because there are NO aftermarket 2v heads offered as of yet, and all of the ported/worked stock casting heads flow around 230ish CFM which is still total crap.
Ok buddy boy you pulled most of that out of your @$$. I never said cam's weren't good on any other cars. Every moron knows cams are great on S/c and n/a and every other car. Idk where you got the idea that i dont like cams. Also use a little science when you think about this. Supercharger WILL ADD POWER. Its called static pressure, like i said. It increases the pressure but the resistance is NOT less. You're still going through the same space. Tell me why a supercharged car with aftermarket heads makes more power than a supercharged car with stock heads. Huh maybe its becuase of the exact same thing i was talking about. Idk where you got all this from. My whole rant was just to say that heads are the biggest restriction on a car and stage 2 cams will do MUCH MUCH better on a car with aftermarket heads, like they were intended to. Not that they wont make power on stock heads but they're not intended to work with stock heads. . . Also i never said that you can't make power without a head swap. I never said that ported heads are God's gift to mustang. ALL I SAID WAS THAT THE HEADS ON A 4.6 2V MODULAR MOTOR ARE THE MOST RESTRICTIVE PART OF THE MOTOR!!! Doesnt mean that if i slap on a 200 shot of n20 of supercharge a 4.6 with stock heads i wont make power. So i dont really understand what you're bashing me for???? Please go back and re-read what i said and then write something new up that is a little more relevent.
Simply put, it is not a correct statement to say that you cannot/should not run a stage2 cam on a stock head car. the heads are not the issue with running a stage 2 cam, RPM is. Even with this being true, I still say that if 10 diffent dyno sheets were thrown before you, all with stock heads, you could not tell me which 5 were stage 1 and which were stage 2 cammed cars. The differences on a bolton only n/a car are simply not that extreme... its hard to even notice on a dyno sheet.
Were talking a 5-8 WHP/WTQ difference at ANY point in the RPM curve here, at BEST. When I did my stage 2 cams dyno there had to have been at least another 3-5 forum members doing the same thing (stage 1 or two) and the dyno sheets all looked almost exactly the same. Your simply overstating the problem.
And BTW, I wouldn't exactly trust everything you hear from people on the phone at VT or anywhere else. When ordering my cam, I was told that I would have no problems running almost any configuration (FI or n/a) with the stage 2 cam regardless of horsepower, and that I could also run a blower cam with almost the same n/a results as the n/a cam... and we all know that both of those statements are untrue.
Little known fact? VT isn't even owned by the same people it was orginally owned by. I spent over 2 months just trying to get my cams from them when they went thru the changeover process... so what leads you to beileve that the people that acutally designed the cams even work there anymore?
THIS IS MY FINAL STATEMENT that i've kept saying over and over again and you people, like a bunch of ravinging news reporters have twisted what i say around and argued with me using the same points im making? I guess im alone here? So, and read very very carefully please 2000 and NX, the most restrictive part of a 2v engine is the heads. End of story. Run with that whatever way you want to.
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: code3GT
Well, I only have my opinion. With every mod ya do, there are always supporting mods needed to support/enhance the first mod. I have seen good results with Stage 1 cams on stock heads, but with head work...the #'s would definitely be better. With larger cams, my feeling is...to see the full potential of the bigger cams, some sort of head work would be beneficial.
This type of question can be directed towards alot of mods and supporting mods. This is what magazines and performance parts manufacturers thrive on about advertised power increases.
The key is to do alot of research on mods and remember that for everything you change, you need to also look at surrounding parts that are related. Does that make sense?
ORIGINAL: Silver2000stang
mitch, your opinion?
and stangman, call vt, dont be shy, scott is always willing to help and you will get great advice. you can hear what i said from the horses mouth
mitch, your opinion?
and stangman, call vt, dont be shy, scott is always willing to help and you will get great advice. you can hear what i said from the horses mouth
This type of question can be directed towards alot of mods and supporting mods. This is what magazines and performance parts manufacturers thrive on about advertised power increases.
The key is to do alot of research on mods and remember that for everything you change, you need to also look at surrounding parts that are related. Does that make sense?
You guys are like well 2v heads suck no matter what! Uh yeah i know that. And supercharging makes more power! uh yeah. . . And big cams make more power no matter what! uh ok yeah. . . And i can put any size cam on i want and make tons of power! . . . ok that one i'll say is wrong put more power to ya!
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,928
From: Colorado- 8500 feet!
RE: Cam ?s
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
I just want to point out that I am not "bashing" anyone at all. However, when misinformation, intentional or not, is being posted it needs to be pointed out.
Like it or not, the post that was quoted is telling the OP that he should skip the cams and go for heads. this is pretty obvious by this quote:
Regardless of your intent, this is the result. We have to be careful about what is posted in the tech section, some people don't have any other good sources of information.
I have been in the terrible postion of buying parts that I should not have bought because I had little/no other information to go on but what was posted on this forum. There are people (like me) that live in areas with almost no support for mustangs (or performance) and have to use the internet for information. When I just started out, I had little recorse but to ask questions on the internet and hope they were correct.
Lets just be careful about the tech advice posted, and make sure we make our points clearly. Nothing sucks worse than giving someone bad advice that costs them money... well except for being the person that took the advice.
I just want to point out that I am not "bashing" anyone at all. However, when misinformation, intentional or not, is being posted it needs to be pointed out.
Like it or not, the post that was quoted is telling the OP that he should skip the cams and go for heads. this is pretty obvious by this quote:
So there is nothing to do except change heads huh? What about the patriot performance stage 2 heads anybody have them?
As far as the drive shaft goes yes I could tell a dif. less spinning weight = more power whenI redo my tranny and clutch I'mputting in a alumfly wheel free up ponies there also.
As far as the drive shaft goes yes I could tell a dif. less spinning weight = more power whenI redo my tranny and clutch I'mputting in a alumfly wheel free up ponies there also.
I have been in the terrible postion of buying parts that I should not have bought because I had little/no other information to go on but what was posted on this forum. There are people (like me) that live in areas with almost no support for mustangs (or performance) and have to use the internet for information. When I just started out, I had little recorse but to ask questions on the internet and hope they were correct.
Lets just be careful about the tech advice posted, and make sure we make our points clearly. Nothing sucks worse than giving someone bad advice that costs them money... well except for being the person that took the advice.
Exactly and thats why we always say the best way is to call and ask the professionals. We can arguee about this all day long but the ones who make and manufacture the parts are the ones who will know whats best. In MOST cases. . .Im sure if you called up the people who make "the Turbonator" they'd tell you its the best product in the world and it will make 30 rwhp easy! . . .
6th Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,575
From: United States
RE: Cam ?s
The entire point, which is exactly what you are NOT saying, is that you do not need head porting to run a stage 2 cam. it is not nessicarry to port the heads to get good gains out of the cam, and it will not hurt performance to run them on a stock head.
This is what I am saying. You are 100 percent fine in running a stage 2 cam in a stock head car. I have done this, it works, cannot be argued,and there is no signficant drop in power at any point compared to a stage 1 cam. The stage 1 will come on sooner, and make a little more TQ, but not make as much peak and redline horsepower compared to the stage 2. The stage 2 will give up some torque, and will come on later, but will make more peak/redline horsepower.
In reality, the only reason the stage 2 doesn't outperform the stage 1 even more is the required valvespring upgrade. The stiffer valvesprings will cost you a few WHP, which the stage 2 cam cannot cancel out until a bit higher in the RPM band... which is a major reason why it gives up some of the power down low. but thats what your doing with a more agressive cam swap anyway... shifting the powerband farther to the right on the dyno
This is what I am saying. You are 100 percent fine in running a stage 2 cam in a stock head car. I have done this, it works, cannot be argued,and there is no signficant drop in power at any point compared to a stage 1 cam. The stage 1 will come on sooner, and make a little more TQ, but not make as much peak and redline horsepower compared to the stage 2. The stage 2 will give up some torque, and will come on later, but will make more peak/redline horsepower.
In reality, the only reason the stage 2 doesn't outperform the stage 1 even more is the required valvespring upgrade. The stiffer valvesprings will cost you a few WHP, which the stage 2 cam cannot cancel out until a bit higher in the RPM band... which is a major reason why it gives up some of the power down low. but thats what your doing with a more agressive cam swap anyway... shifting the powerband farther to the right on the dyno
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 776
From:
RE: Cam ?s
Im with 2000GT4.6 on this. I just got off the phone with a place about cams to. Brothers Performance out of california. Anyways the guy out there said and I quote, " You could run a stage 2 cam on a stock head and be safe and run fine. But there isnt a point because you cant use the cam to its full potential"