yo dimebag...
11-24-2008, 10:32 PM
#11
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: florida
Posts: 212
Lol its ok. I understand what you meant. You just wanted to know but it sounded like it came off the wrong foot. We are here to help. Summit UCA/LCA are not the best aftermarket control arms out. They are however better than stock. I dont understand why people think it cant be done with the stock springs that confuses me.
11-24-2008, 10:52 PM
#12
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CO
Posts: 3
Well, they are wrong. Anything aftermarket is BETTER than stock. Summit UCA/LCA are just fine, not the best aftermarket but they get the job done.
I also dont car what they have to think... stock springs are just fine and work great. They are full of misinformation. Maybe we should call them out and not dime, you think?
Haha i cant wait what dime says when he sees this...
I also dont car what they have to think... stock springs are just fine and work great. They are full of misinformation. Maybe we should call them out and not dime, you think?
Haha i cant wait what dime says when he sees this...
Ill agree that a stock spring is better than a lowering spring... But when building a car to go fast in the 1320, why not spend the 300 bucks on some Drag springs, or better yet... COIL OVERS....
here is a little reading for ya...
"Rear springs should be a little stiffer for a drag car but many people think that the car should "squat" during the launch so they install softer rear springs on the car to accomplish this. The only cars that should be squatting during the launch are those cars that shock the tires very hard (4-speed cars) and with enough power where the car will overpower the tires. Prostock cars actually squat during launch because they develop enough torque and hit the tires so hard that the squatting helps absorb some of the shock and keeps from overpowering the tires. But, setting up the car to squat is not a function of the springs. It is the position of the Instant Center (IC) that determines how the car squats. The STOCK mounting points for the control arms already cause the car to squat which can unload the tires. So in order to compensate for this squatting the springs need to be stiff to transfer the force to the tires.
If the rear end squats that means that the rear springs/shocks are not pushing the rear tires into the ground. They are just compressing. For the most part you don't want the rear to squat because you want some resistance from the springs/shocks to transfer the force/weight to the tires.
Example:
Make a coil spring out of a coat hanger and place it on a bathroom scale. Push on the spring. The scale is not going to read much because you are not transferring any force to the scale through the softer spring. Now take the spring out of your car and place it on the scale and do the same thing. The scale will read more pressure because it IS transferring more force through the spring."
And Summit Control arms are going to do one thing.... Help control the twist of the axle on launch... all that means is eliminate wheel hop..
Do you understand how a Suspension works? You have to set up a car suspension depending on each car, but Instant Center is a main part of having a car hook, and not squat... By adjusting the IC to were the CG(lets just say the shifter) this will allow for the best use of the engery to propel the car forward, not sky ward, and not breaking the tires loose...
IC's that are located in frong of the CG will tend to lift the front of the car.
IC's that are located behind the CG will tend to lift the *** end of the car.
Here is some more reading about it
"
The goal in setting up a suspension is to apply just enough force to the tires to keep them from spinning and let the rest of the force push the car forward.
Draw an imaginary line through the lower control arm forward. Now draw an imaginary line through the upper control arm forward until it intersects the lower line. This intersection is called the Instant Center (IC).
Now imagine the Center of Gravity (CG) of your car concentrated at the shifter handle. Where the IC (Instant Center) is located compared to the CG (Center of Gravity) is what determines how the force of the suspension acts on the car to get it moving. If the IC is too high then there will be too much energy wasted pushing the car skyward. If the IC is too low then there won't be enough force applied to the rear tires and the tires will spin. There are also variables if the IC is in front of the CG or behind the CG. Somewhere there is going to be a position (or more than one) that will apply just enough force to the tires to keep them from spinning and the rest of the force will push the car forward.
While the car is sitting still, the tires have 100% traction. During the launch you don't want to change this. Properly adjusting the IC will maintain the existing traction during the initial launch or Tire Shock. The IC starts working during the first .001 second of the launch and continues for the next 30 feet or so. However, after the first .001 seconds the shocks are playing a very important roll in "maintaining" the traction and allowing the IC to apply the desired force to the tires. For the most part, the IC is what is adjusted to get the initial hook and the shocks should be adjusted to maintain the traction throughout the 60'.
The four control arms on a four link type suspension, when adjusted correctly for a particular car, can help launch a car quicker and use less horsepower doing it. Compared to a ladder bar suspension a 4 link suspension has the added benifit of changing the length of the Instant Center to accomodate more or less front end lift without adding any more Anti Squat.
Definitions:
Anti Squat (AS):
This is a term used to describe how much the rear of the car will Rise or Squat during launch. If a chassis has 160% of AS then the rear will rise drastically, planting the tires violently. By comparison if a chassis has 100% AS then the rear of the car will not rise or squat and if a chassis has less than 100% the rear of the car will squat.
~A common problem with high horsepower cars running Too Much AS is that the tires will plant the tires very hard for the first several feet but then start to unload the tires and spin when the chassis starts to settle. If your car does this, then look into the value of the AS. Much too often racers will detune the engine to "calm down" the launch instead of look into the suspension geometry.
~A common problem with high horsepower cars running Too Little AS is that the suspension will cause the rear of the car to squat which tries to unload the tires. Again racers detune the engine to maintain traction instead of looking into the suspension geometry.
Normal/Neutral Line:
1. Draw a line up through the center of your front wheel.
2. Draw a Horizontal line through the CG until it crosses the line drawn through your front wheel and mark this intersection point. The Normal Line (or Neutral Line) is the line drawn from the Rear Tire contact patch through this intersection. Neutral Line
The location of the IC relative to the CG and the Normal Line (or Neutral line) is what determines what the chassis is going to do. One term used to describe the chassis movement for a 4 link suspension is Anti Squat. An IC that is located ABOVE the Normal Line is said to have more than 100% Anti-Squat. An IC located BELOW the Normal Line is said to have less than 100% Anti Squat.
~4-link settings of 100% Anti Squat should accelerate the car w/o any raising or squatting of the rear of the car.
~4-link settings with MORE than 100% Anti Squat will Raise the rear end and hit the tires HARDER.
~4-link settings with LESS than 100% Anti Squat will cause the rear end to Squat and hit the tires SOFTER."
You guys can read the whole article here...
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/i...A_Drag_Car.htm
But what the hell is a Summit Control arm doing at all when talking like that? NOthing at all... just controls wheel hop a bit.
I know my 96 GT on slicks spraying 100 shot at 4500 never hopped ever... infact all i have is Drag springs out back and coil overs up front... i will do a 1.68 60'. I am out there twice a week when the track is open... have many passes in the car and can cut great 60's for what i have. There is no reason for LCA and UCA that dont allow you to make adjustments... At least i have never seen a reason to....
And before you guys think I am stickin up for the Orginal Poster, you guys can think again... I really cant stand the guy much... I am just out there to provide correct information, and not let people misinform people.
Please feel free to voice your opinions, but you better be educated to back up your opinions.
And before you go saying that The Orginal poster, him has a street car and wont go to the track, I already know that. He is stupid for not racing at the track and being safe about it, but hell im just a 17 year old kid too.... and I will not WASTE my money on something that is going to need to be replaced later because of the "bad" desiscion that I made in choosing it.... I SPEND MONEY ONCE, and DO IT RIGHT...
GOT TO PAY TO PLAY....
Last edited by MustangMatt96GT; 11-24-2008 at 10:54 PM.
11-24-2008, 10:57 PM
#13
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,551
Cliff notes^^^
i will say this:
i autocross and my roush lower control arms(cost 100 shipped off ebay NIB) did a pretty good job as far as helping the car plant and go; especially coming out of corners.
i will say this:
i autocross and my roush lower control arms(cost 100 shipped off ebay NIB) did a pretty good job as far as helping the car plant and go; especially coming out of corners.
11-24-2008, 10:58 PM
#14
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CO
Posts: 3
road course cars are completley different than Drag cars.... but I can talk about those suspesions some what too if you want me to....
11-24-2008, 11:04 PM
#17
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: florida
Posts: 212
hoss if you have aim pm me with it please
11-24-2008, 11:06 PM
#18
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 0
Call me out all you want you dip ****...
Ill agree that a stock spring is better than a lowering spring... But when building a car to go fast in the 1320, why not spend the 300 bucks on some Drag springs, or better yet... COIL OVERS....
here is a little reading for ya...
"Rear springs should be a little stiffer for a drag car but many people think that the car should "squat" during the launch so they install softer rear springs on the car to accomplish this. The only cars that should be squatting during the launch are those cars that shock the tires very hard (4-speed cars) and with enough power where the car will overpower the tires. Prostock cars actually squat during launch because they develop enough torque and hit the tires so hard that the squatting helps absorb some of the shock and keeps from overpowering the tires. But, setting up the car to squat is not a function of the springs. It is the position of the Instant Center (IC) that determines how the car squats. The STOCK mounting points for the control arms already cause the car to squat which can unload the tires. So in order to compensate for this squatting the springs need to be stiff to transfer the force to the tires.
If the rear end squats that means that the rear springs/shocks are not pushing the rear tires into the ground. They are just compressing. For the most part you don't want the rear to squat because you want some resistance from the springs/shocks to transfer the force/weight to the tires.
Example:
Make a coil spring out of a coat hanger and place it on a bathroom scale. Push on the spring. The scale is not going to read much because you are not transferring any force to the scale through the softer spring. Now take the spring out of your car and place it on the scale and do the same thing. The scale will read more pressure because it IS transferring more force through the spring."
And Summit Control arms are going to do one thing.... Help control the twist of the axle on launch... all that means is eliminate wheel hop..
Do you understand how a Suspension works? You have to set up a car suspension depending on each car, but Instant Center is a main part of having a car hook, and not squat... By adjusting the IC to were the CG(lets just say the shifter) this will allow for the best use of the engery to propel the car forward, not sky ward, and not breaking the tires loose...
IC's that are located in frong of the CG will tend to lift the front of the car.
IC's that are located behind the CG will tend to lift the *** end of the car.
Here is some more reading about it
"
The goal in setting up a suspension is to apply just enough force to the tires to keep them from spinning and let the rest of the force push the car forward.
Draw an imaginary line through the lower control arm forward. Now draw an imaginary line through the upper control arm forward until it intersects the lower line. This intersection is called the Instant Center (IC).
Now imagine the Center of Gravity (CG) of your car concentrated at the shifter handle. Where the IC (Instant Center) is located compared to the CG (Center of Gravity) is what determines how the force of the suspension acts on the car to get it moving. If the IC is too high then there will be too much energy wasted pushing the car skyward. If the IC is too low then there won't be enough force applied to the rear tires and the tires will spin. There are also variables if the IC is in front of the CG or behind the CG. Somewhere there is going to be a position (or more than one) that will apply just enough force to the tires to keep them from spinning and the rest of the force will push the car forward.
While the car is sitting still, the tires have 100% traction. During the launch you don't want to change this. Properly adjusting the IC will maintain the existing traction during the initial launch or Tire Shock. The IC starts working during the first .001 second of the launch and continues for the next 30 feet or so. However, after the first .001 seconds the shocks are playing a very important roll in "maintaining" the traction and allowing the IC to apply the desired force to the tires. For the most part, the IC is what is adjusted to get the initial hook and the shocks should be adjusted to maintain the traction throughout the 60'.
The four control arms on a four link type suspension, when adjusted correctly for a particular car, can help launch a car quicker and use less horsepower doing it. Compared to a ladder bar suspension a 4 link suspension has the added benifit of changing the length of the Instant Center to accomodate more or less front end lift without adding any more Anti Squat.
Definitions:
Anti Squat (AS):
This is a term used to describe how much the rear of the car will Rise or Squat during launch. If a chassis has 160% of AS then the rear will rise drastically, planting the tires violently. By comparison if a chassis has 100% AS then the rear of the car will not rise or squat and if a chassis has less than 100% the rear of the car will squat.
~A common problem with high horsepower cars running Too Much AS is that the tires will plant the tires very hard for the first several feet but then start to unload the tires and spin when the chassis starts to settle. If your car does this, then look into the value of the AS. Much too often racers will detune the engine to "calm down" the launch instead of look into the suspension geometry.
~A common problem with high horsepower cars running Too Little AS is that the suspension will cause the rear of the car to squat which tries to unload the tires. Again racers detune the engine to maintain traction instead of looking into the suspension geometry.
Normal/Neutral Line:
1. Draw a line up through the center of your front wheel.
2. Draw a Horizontal line through the CG until it crosses the line drawn through your front wheel and mark this intersection point. The Normal Line (or Neutral Line) is the line drawn from the Rear Tire contact patch through this intersection. Neutral Line
The location of the IC relative to the CG and the Normal Line (or Neutral line) is what determines what the chassis is going to do. One term used to describe the chassis movement for a 4 link suspension is Anti Squat. An IC that is located ABOVE the Normal Line is said to have more than 100% Anti-Squat. An IC located BELOW the Normal Line is said to have less than 100% Anti Squat.
~4-link settings of 100% Anti Squat should accelerate the car w/o any raising or squatting of the rear of the car.
~4-link settings with MORE than 100% Anti Squat will Raise the rear end and hit the tires HARDER.
~4-link settings with LESS than 100% Anti Squat will cause the rear end to Squat and hit the tires SOFTER."
You guys can read the whole article here...
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/i...A_Drag_Car.htm
But what the hell is a Summit Control arm doing at all when talking like that? NOthing at all... just controls wheel hop a bit.
I know my 96 GT on slicks spraying 100 shot at 4500 never hopped ever... infact all i have is Drag springs out back and coil overs up front... i will do a 1.68 60'. I am out there twice a week when the track is open... have many passes in the car and can cut great 60's for what i have. There is no reason for LCA and UCA that dont allow you to make adjustments... At least i have never seen a reason to....
And before you guys think I am stickin up for the Orginal Poster, you guys can think again... I really cant stand the guy much... I am just out there to provide correct information, and not let people misinform people.
Please feel free to voice your opinions, but you better be educated to back up your opinions.
And before you go saying that The Orginal poster, him has a street car and wont go to the track, I already know that. He is stupid for not racing at the track and being safe about it, but hell im just a 17 year old kid too.... and I will not WASTE my money on something that is going to need to be replaced later because of the "bad" desiscion that I made in choosing it.... I SPEND MONEY ONCE, and DO IT RIGHT...
GOT TO PAY TO PLAY....
Ill agree that a stock spring is better than a lowering spring... But when building a car to go fast in the 1320, why not spend the 300 bucks on some Drag springs, or better yet... COIL OVERS....
here is a little reading for ya...
"Rear springs should be a little stiffer for a drag car but many people think that the car should "squat" during the launch so they install softer rear springs on the car to accomplish this. The only cars that should be squatting during the launch are those cars that shock the tires very hard (4-speed cars) and with enough power where the car will overpower the tires. Prostock cars actually squat during launch because they develop enough torque and hit the tires so hard that the squatting helps absorb some of the shock and keeps from overpowering the tires. But, setting up the car to squat is not a function of the springs. It is the position of the Instant Center (IC) that determines how the car squats. The STOCK mounting points for the control arms already cause the car to squat which can unload the tires. So in order to compensate for this squatting the springs need to be stiff to transfer the force to the tires.
If the rear end squats that means that the rear springs/shocks are not pushing the rear tires into the ground. They are just compressing. For the most part you don't want the rear to squat because you want some resistance from the springs/shocks to transfer the force/weight to the tires.
Example:
Make a coil spring out of a coat hanger and place it on a bathroom scale. Push on the spring. The scale is not going to read much because you are not transferring any force to the scale through the softer spring. Now take the spring out of your car and place it on the scale and do the same thing. The scale will read more pressure because it IS transferring more force through the spring."
And Summit Control arms are going to do one thing.... Help control the twist of the axle on launch... all that means is eliminate wheel hop..
Do you understand how a Suspension works? You have to set up a car suspension depending on each car, but Instant Center is a main part of having a car hook, and not squat... By adjusting the IC to were the CG(lets just say the shifter) this will allow for the best use of the engery to propel the car forward, not sky ward, and not breaking the tires loose...
IC's that are located in frong of the CG will tend to lift the front of the car.
IC's that are located behind the CG will tend to lift the *** end of the car.
Here is some more reading about it
"
The goal in setting up a suspension is to apply just enough force to the tires to keep them from spinning and let the rest of the force push the car forward.
Draw an imaginary line through the lower control arm forward. Now draw an imaginary line through the upper control arm forward until it intersects the lower line. This intersection is called the Instant Center (IC).
Now imagine the Center of Gravity (CG) of your car concentrated at the shifter handle. Where the IC (Instant Center) is located compared to the CG (Center of Gravity) is what determines how the force of the suspension acts on the car to get it moving. If the IC is too high then there will be too much energy wasted pushing the car skyward. If the IC is too low then there won't be enough force applied to the rear tires and the tires will spin. There are also variables if the IC is in front of the CG or behind the CG. Somewhere there is going to be a position (or more than one) that will apply just enough force to the tires to keep them from spinning and the rest of the force will push the car forward.
While the car is sitting still, the tires have 100% traction. During the launch you don't want to change this. Properly adjusting the IC will maintain the existing traction during the initial launch or Tire Shock. The IC starts working during the first .001 second of the launch and continues for the next 30 feet or so. However, after the first .001 seconds the shocks are playing a very important roll in "maintaining" the traction and allowing the IC to apply the desired force to the tires. For the most part, the IC is what is adjusted to get the initial hook and the shocks should be adjusted to maintain the traction throughout the 60'.
The four control arms on a four link type suspension, when adjusted correctly for a particular car, can help launch a car quicker and use less horsepower doing it. Compared to a ladder bar suspension a 4 link suspension has the added benifit of changing the length of the Instant Center to accomodate more or less front end lift without adding any more Anti Squat.
Definitions:
Anti Squat (AS):
This is a term used to describe how much the rear of the car will Rise or Squat during launch. If a chassis has 160% of AS then the rear will rise drastically, planting the tires violently. By comparison if a chassis has 100% AS then the rear of the car will not rise or squat and if a chassis has less than 100% the rear of the car will squat.
~A common problem with high horsepower cars running Too Much AS is that the tires will plant the tires very hard for the first several feet but then start to unload the tires and spin when the chassis starts to settle. If your car does this, then look into the value of the AS. Much too often racers will detune the engine to "calm down" the launch instead of look into the suspension geometry.
~A common problem with high horsepower cars running Too Little AS is that the suspension will cause the rear of the car to squat which tries to unload the tires. Again racers detune the engine to maintain traction instead of looking into the suspension geometry.
Normal/Neutral Line:
1. Draw a line up through the center of your front wheel.
2. Draw a Horizontal line through the CG until it crosses the line drawn through your front wheel and mark this intersection point. The Normal Line (or Neutral Line) is the line drawn from the Rear Tire contact patch through this intersection. Neutral Line
The location of the IC relative to the CG and the Normal Line (or Neutral line) is what determines what the chassis is going to do. One term used to describe the chassis movement for a 4 link suspension is Anti Squat. An IC that is located ABOVE the Normal Line is said to have more than 100% Anti-Squat. An IC located BELOW the Normal Line is said to have less than 100% Anti Squat.
~4-link settings of 100% Anti Squat should accelerate the car w/o any raising or squatting of the rear of the car.
~4-link settings with MORE than 100% Anti Squat will Raise the rear end and hit the tires HARDER.
~4-link settings with LESS than 100% Anti Squat will cause the rear end to Squat and hit the tires SOFTER."
You guys can read the whole article here...
http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/i...A_Drag_Car.htm
But what the hell is a Summit Control arm doing at all when talking like that? NOthing at all... just controls wheel hop a bit.
I know my 96 GT on slicks spraying 100 shot at 4500 never hopped ever... infact all i have is Drag springs out back and coil overs up front... i will do a 1.68 60'. I am out there twice a week when the track is open... have many passes in the car and can cut great 60's for what i have. There is no reason for LCA and UCA that dont allow you to make adjustments... At least i have never seen a reason to....
And before you guys think I am stickin up for the Orginal Poster, you guys can think again... I really cant stand the guy much... I am just out there to provide correct information, and not let people misinform people.
Please feel free to voice your opinions, but you better be educated to back up your opinions.
And before you go saying that The Orginal poster, him has a street car and wont go to the track, I already know that. He is stupid for not racing at the track and being safe about it, but hell im just a 17 year old kid too.... and I will not WASTE my money on something that is going to need to be replaced later because of the "bad" desiscion that I made in choosing it.... I SPEND MONEY ONCE, and DO IT RIGHT...
GOT TO PAY TO PLAY....
By the way I am the mustang suspension GOD
11-24-2008, 11:06 PM
#19
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,551
arctangent+sin/cosx-cscx= NOOB
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