clevor thinking 2
5th Gear Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,566
From: Marquette Mi
RE: Nice Cleavor
Well 4V heads on a 302 would need more rpm to be usefull. 2V heads will make okay power through the entire rpm range. After having a 351 with 4V heads, a 280 comp cam, and a set of headers (otherwise stock Cleveland) running through a stock FMX converter and to a 3.0 rear gear, there is no soggy bottom end to one of those that I found. You mash the gas and it would roast the tires untill you let up, no need to hold the brake.
A 302 is a bit smaller, but 6000-6200 sounds like a good redline. A 2400 stall or close to it will work nice with it, and you shouldnt notice a huge bog provided you have the carb, intake and cam setup for the rest of the engine. If you put a cam in it with 250+ duration at .050 lift, it will start making power around 6000 rpm and will need 8000 to see the max, give or take. A more sensible cam will make power you can use.
Some people seem to forget that the cam, heads, and intake work together to make power. So they will take just one part and say, that head wont work, or that cam wont work. Well sometimes when everything is chosen well, it works. Often the people who say the W can make more power than a C head usualy havent had alot of experinece with both of them. You want to know what a C head is capable of, call John Kasse.. he knows and can prove it quite easily. Just check and see what W style heads have made the same power as C style heads in the Engine Masters competitions. Canted valves are superior no matter what anyone says.
As for the 185 vs 2V debate, who wants to build an engine with the 185s using the same cam and displacement? We can dyno them and find out what works best, with a certain cam and displacement. Your choice, roller block or early block. I have a couple of each sitting here.. I could have mine done around September-October. any takers?
A 302 is a bit smaller, but 6000-6200 sounds like a good redline. A 2400 stall or close to it will work nice with it, and you shouldnt notice a huge bog provided you have the carb, intake and cam setup for the rest of the engine. If you put a cam in it with 250+ duration at .050 lift, it will start making power around 6000 rpm and will need 8000 to see the max, give or take. A more sensible cam will make power you can use.
Some people seem to forget that the cam, heads, and intake work together to make power. So they will take just one part and say, that head wont work, or that cam wont work. Well sometimes when everything is chosen well, it works. Often the people who say the W can make more power than a C head usualy havent had alot of experinece with both of them. You want to know what a C head is capable of, call John Kasse.. he knows and can prove it quite easily. Just check and see what W style heads have made the same power as C style heads in the Engine Masters competitions. Canted valves are superior no matter what anyone says.
As for the 185 vs 2V debate, who wants to build an engine with the 185s using the same cam and displacement? We can dyno them and find out what works best, with a certain cam and displacement. Your choice, roller block or early block. I have a couple of each sitting here.. I could have mine done around September-October. any takers?
Thread Starter
5th Gear Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,305
From: west chester
RE: Nice Cleavor
thumpin ur the man, just got one more thing to add, what cam would u say, something below 400 lift for the cleve heads, i mean wont that hinder the motor in a way,if i get somethin like a b303 cam from ford and put it in there where the rpm band is like 1800-5500, woudl that work, or if i got a bigger cam like the trick flow stage 2 cam where the rpm band is 2500-6000, woudl that be too much? and i plan on using a holley carb, with any intake i can find. are there any other intakes you would suggest with a clevor motor other than b&a?
thanks man
thanks man
6th Gear Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,007
From: Citrus County, FL
RE: Nice Cleavor
b&a intake ftw.
a ford b or e 303 cam is 500 and up on the lift, not less than 400 as you posted (thinkin that was a typo)
if you bottom end is strong enough, and if its properly balanced - spinning up to and above 7k isnt outta the question, especially in short spurts.
i dunno the compression of the top of my head, but i know if you use open chambered heads on a 302 with dished or even flat tops your gonna have LOWWWW compression
im kinda curious though, where are the "dead spots" in the 4v head ports?
a ford b or e 303 cam is 500 and up on the lift, not less than 400 as you posted (thinkin that was a typo)
if you bottom end is strong enough, and if its properly balanced - spinning up to and above 7k isnt outta the question, especially in short spurts.
i dunno the compression of the top of my head, but i know if you use open chambered heads on a 302 with dished or even flat tops your gonna have LOWWWW compression
im kinda curious though, where are the "dead spots" in the 4v head ports?
5th Gear Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,566
From: Marquette Mi
RE: Nice Cleavor
Man I take alot of pics for you guys..lol.
The area marked in white on the head is where the dead space is located. its on the exhaust port on the 4V. It is much less pronounced on the 2V head. you can see the difference in port size between the 2V nd 4V heads, the 2V has a 4V intake gasket still attached to it, you get a relative idea of how much larger they really are. The difference is substantial to say the least.
The reason why its a dead spot is how the gasses flow out of the port. I drew a rough cross section with an exagerated floor to illustrate the effect. The red line is where the exhaust wants to flow, and the red shaded area under it is where its a dead spot, or in other words it lost velocity from a sudden opening of the area. Fill that in and velocity increases making it a more effective port.
The same thing happened on the intake side, and the 351W had an intake with a similar compromise with a factory intake. The ports were dropped on the intake to keep the carb under the hood. Take the sketch I made and imagine it as the intake, they did the same sort of thing there. Fill it in and you get much improved flow provided you have an intake that corresponds to the now higher port floor.
Read up on the venturi effect and how it affects low pressure, high pressure and simple airflow speeds. The basics is when you have a tube with a part that is smaller it will flow faster through that part of the tube. If you have part of the tube that gets larger, it will flow slower. A port is simply a tube embedded in a chunk of iron that air flows through.
When you add fuel to it that changes things a bit, because wet flow is different from dry flow. But that is something else to talk about later.
A 302 should be able to stand 7000 rpm provided the valve train can handle it. That doesnt mean you want to spin it that tight every time or very often. less rpm means the engine will live longer simply because there is less stress on the reciprocating assembly.
As for the B303 or any 303 cam, they are kinda an old school design more in line with an EFI configuration than a carb. They work okay in a 5.0 with stock heads, or even a bit more airflow, but they are intended to have a nice idle, plenty of vacuum, and not mess up the EEC.
Picking a cam requires a few other items to be known. Gear ratio, vehicle weight, stall speed, intended rpm range where it will spend most of its time, intake, carb size or efi, and of course the head and engine displacement. For a mild 302 with 2V heads on it, going in a car with a 2400-3000 stall, dual plane intake something in the 220-228 intake duration and 220-232 exhaust duration depending on how restrictive the exaust system is.
If it were mine, and it would be run hard and often in a performance application but still streetable (limited of course) I would pick something with a 234-238 intake-exhaust duration at .050 lift with a 3000-3400 stall and 4.10 gears. Set up like that it would run really well, especially with 26"-28" diameter tires in a light car like a Maverick or early Stang burn pump gas but not be great on mileage. Driveability would suffer a bit, and it would be weak on torque under 2500rpm. That is what you call a higher rpm street engine. Add compression (11:1 or more) bump it to a 240 or 250 @ .050 cam with open headers and its a full on race engine.
The only part of lift that concerns me is will it hit the piston or valve guide when the valve is fully open. I use duration to pick my cams because it has a much greater effect than lift does on how th engine will run.
Yes low CR with open chambers on a 302, think nitrous...lol...
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/F554ABD200044B378822CB650C051FBE.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/CD07C0122D604420AF0DEF4B348419B6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/A840C2049CBE4F408DF8120BB673F2E6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/5CB24ADF58184832A40DE5A66E6676D5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/1F19AD2DC01C4C0CA8A165B0828C61E4.jpg[/IMG]
The area marked in white on the head is where the dead space is located. its on the exhaust port on the 4V. It is much less pronounced on the 2V head. you can see the difference in port size between the 2V nd 4V heads, the 2V has a 4V intake gasket still attached to it, you get a relative idea of how much larger they really are. The difference is substantial to say the least.
The reason why its a dead spot is how the gasses flow out of the port. I drew a rough cross section with an exagerated floor to illustrate the effect. The red line is where the exhaust wants to flow, and the red shaded area under it is where its a dead spot, or in other words it lost velocity from a sudden opening of the area. Fill that in and velocity increases making it a more effective port.
The same thing happened on the intake side, and the 351W had an intake with a similar compromise with a factory intake. The ports were dropped on the intake to keep the carb under the hood. Take the sketch I made and imagine it as the intake, they did the same sort of thing there. Fill it in and you get much improved flow provided you have an intake that corresponds to the now higher port floor.
Read up on the venturi effect and how it affects low pressure, high pressure and simple airflow speeds. The basics is when you have a tube with a part that is smaller it will flow faster through that part of the tube. If you have part of the tube that gets larger, it will flow slower. A port is simply a tube embedded in a chunk of iron that air flows through.
When you add fuel to it that changes things a bit, because wet flow is different from dry flow. But that is something else to talk about later.
A 302 should be able to stand 7000 rpm provided the valve train can handle it. That doesnt mean you want to spin it that tight every time or very often. less rpm means the engine will live longer simply because there is less stress on the reciprocating assembly.
As for the B303 or any 303 cam, they are kinda an old school design more in line with an EFI configuration than a carb. They work okay in a 5.0 with stock heads, or even a bit more airflow, but they are intended to have a nice idle, plenty of vacuum, and not mess up the EEC.
Picking a cam requires a few other items to be known. Gear ratio, vehicle weight, stall speed, intended rpm range where it will spend most of its time, intake, carb size or efi, and of course the head and engine displacement. For a mild 302 with 2V heads on it, going in a car with a 2400-3000 stall, dual plane intake something in the 220-228 intake duration and 220-232 exhaust duration depending on how restrictive the exaust system is.
If it were mine, and it would be run hard and often in a performance application but still streetable (limited of course) I would pick something with a 234-238 intake-exhaust duration at .050 lift with a 3000-3400 stall and 4.10 gears. Set up like that it would run really well, especially with 26"-28" diameter tires in a light car like a Maverick or early Stang burn pump gas but not be great on mileage. Driveability would suffer a bit, and it would be weak on torque under 2500rpm. That is what you call a higher rpm street engine. Add compression (11:1 or more) bump it to a 240 or 250 @ .050 cam with open headers and its a full on race engine.
The only part of lift that concerns me is will it hit the piston or valve guide when the valve is fully open. I use duration to pick my cams because it has a much greater effect than lift does on how th engine will run.
Yes low CR with open chambers on a 302, think nitrous...lol...
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/F554ABD200044B378822CB650C051FBE.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/CD07C0122D604420AF0DEF4B348419B6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/A840C2049CBE4F408DF8120BB673F2E6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/5CB24ADF58184832A40DE5A66E6676D5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/14646/1F19AD2DC01C4C0CA8A165B0828C61E4.jpg[/IMG]
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 151
From: Ohio
RE: Nice Cleavor
ORIGINAL: 6mustang6
I always thought the 4v heads are more suited for Drag racing i.e. HIGH RPM speeds. The 2v heads have smaller ports, which make them better then for low torque, to get the car moving. I also heard the 185's are too big for 289's and maybe 302's because they have too big ports, so there is virtually no bottom end. Thats what i heard anyway.
I always thought the 4v heads are more suited for Drag racing i.e. HIGH RPM speeds. The 2v heads have smaller ports, which make them better then for low torque, to get the car moving. I also heard the 185's are too big for 289's and maybe 302's because they have too big ports, so there is virtually no bottom end. Thats what i heard anyway.
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 151
From: Ohio
RE: Nice Cleavor
ORIGINAL: ih8chevy
well im hopin to find one on ebay, the motor wont be here till summer and i am in no hurry to put it in the stang im also hopin to find one at carlisle car show when I go in april.. now i have to ask is the 2v open chamber heads good to use on the 302?
oh and how high should i spin it, im thinkin around 6200 or so is the redline, but someone told me the cleve heads dont make power till 6000, which is not entirely false.
well im hopin to find one on ebay, the motor wont be here till summer and i am in no hurry to put it in the stang im also hopin to find one at carlisle car show when I go in april.. now i have to ask is the 2v open chamber heads good to use on the 302?
oh and how high should i spin it, im thinkin around 6200 or so is the redline, but someone told me the cleve heads dont make power till 6000, which is not entirely false.
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/
They have a lot of adapters for this kind of swap.
Their price for adapters are $250, if you were to use a new 302Victor Jr intake($250) you'd be looking at total $500. That's about how much a B302 intake sells for on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...;rd=1&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...;rd=1&rd=1
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 151
From: Ohio
RE: Nice Cleavor
Some interesting reading:
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page1.jpg
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page2.jpg
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page3.jpg
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page4.jpg
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techa...clevor_engine/
http://www.darkhorseracing.net/clevor_head_mod.htm
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page1.jpg
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page2.jpg
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page3.jpg
http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/c...nd2v/page4.jpg
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techa...clevor_engine/
http://www.darkhorseracing.net/clevor_head_mod.htm
Thread Starter
5th Gear Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,305
From: west chester
RE: Nice Cleavor
well guys bad news. doing some more research it seems as though being told by a member on this site, fordstrokers, says that a clevor is too expensive for a kid like me. considering i will need at least 600 for headers, and the intake if i can find it will be quite expensive. i am really skeptical right now[:@]. im not so sure at the moment cause i also heard that these motors have a tendency to explode. this aint good for a kid in college. can anyone varify this?