which longtubes ?
08-26-2006, 01:45 AM
#21
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 118
RE: which longtubes ?
The long tubes are the biggest waiste of money for the HP return. Save it for later mods. If you look into this site and many other posts, you will see that the guys that are honest with themselves are getting close to 5 HP from a set of LTHs if they are lucky.
A lighter drive shaft on the other hand (there are many at 21lbs. or less, which is half of stock), will net you almost 15 HP at the wheels due to the loss of all of that rotating mass. You will definitely feel it everytime you drive the car and you will see slightly better economy from it as well. Do not believe the hype about the LTHs, they should be reserved until you spend a considerable amount of money under the hood first.
The Tune and CAIs are the real deal, except most of the power comes from the tune, not the intake itself. There are guys seeing 20+ HP just from the tune on their stock intakes with a K&N drop in filter.
I am going the route of the tune on the stock intake until I purchase my turbo setup, but my next mod is definately going to be the driveshaft. It will improve everything about the car going forward, everytime you drive it.
Thanks,
Skrappy
A lighter drive shaft on the other hand (there are many at 21lbs. or less, which is half of stock), will net you almost 15 HP at the wheels due to the loss of all of that rotating mass. You will definitely feel it everytime you drive the car and you will see slightly better economy from it as well. Do not believe the hype about the LTHs, they should be reserved until you spend a considerable amount of money under the hood first.
The Tune and CAIs are the real deal, except most of the power comes from the tune, not the intake itself. There are guys seeing 20+ HP just from the tune on their stock intakes with a K&N drop in filter.
I am going the route of the tune on the stock intake until I purchase my turbo setup, but my next mod is definately going to be the driveshaft. It will improve everything about the car going forward, everytime you drive it.
Thanks,
Skrappy
08-26-2006, 03:27 AM
#22
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,881
RE: which longtubes ?
ORIGINAL: Skrappy
The long tubes are the biggest waiste of money for the HP return. Save it for later mods. If you look into this site and many other posts, you will see that the guys that are honest with themselves are getting close to 5 HP from a set of LTHs if they are lucky.
The long tubes are the biggest waiste of money for the HP return. Save it for later mods. If you look into this site and many other posts, you will see that the guys that are honest with themselves are getting close to 5 HP from a set of LTHs if they are lucky.
08-26-2006, 02:51 PM
#23
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Nashville Tn
Posts: 1,644
RE: which longtubes ?
ORIGINAL: bl1nkage
Sorry, but thats SHORTYS. Not LONGTUBES.... Longtubes have been proven to get much more hp than the shortys and for a good reason.. simply looking at the design of them tells you a good bit about what kind of gains you will get. If you know anything about engines and fluids youd know that if a shorty is getting 3-5 hp extra over stock then a well designed LT should be able to get 3-4 times that easy.
ORIGINAL: Skrappy
The long tubes are the biggest waiste of money for the HP return. Save it for later mods. If you look into this site and many other posts, you will see that the guys that are honest with themselves are getting close to 5 HP from a set of LTHs if they are lucky.
The long tubes are the biggest waiste of money for the HP return. Save it for later mods. If you look into this site and many other posts, you will see that the guys that are honest with themselves are getting close to 5 HP from a set of LTHs if they are lucky.
08-26-2006, 06:07 PM
#24
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 864
RE: which longtubes ?
hmm... im still curious bout those 4.10's ... but speaking of headers i think borla's are the best in power right ?
who in here has 4.10's without a s/c and who doesnt drag race only ? i think i need to pm him and ask him few questions,and thanks musiccitygt for ur help.
who in here has 4.10's without a s/c and who doesnt drag race only ? i think i need to pm him and ask him few questions,and thanks musiccitygt for ur help.
08-26-2006, 06:43 PM
#25
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 692
RE: which longtubes ?
Dude, You're asking questions and we're offering advice, but I don't think you're hearing what we're saying. If you buy Borla headers forget about cats because they DON"T HAVE A CATTED SYSTEM! Their product has only been available for a few months so I've not seen a single dyno graph anywhere to support any HP gains one way or another. They make nice mufflers (of which I have a set) but who knows about their header systems? I was on board to get them and was gung ho to have a 100% Borla exhaust system. I got tired of waiting month after month for a product nobody had. I'm not sure if Borla was caught with their pants down and couldn't keep up with the demand or perhaps they found a serious design flaw and stopped the presses. Do you think they're going to tell you their headers were falling apart so they decided to rethink the design? I bailed and decided to give a new kid on the block my business (American Racing Headers). My mistake was to get an off road system (catless) and I told you IT'S WAY TO LOUD! I'm actually driving down from NH to NY to their facility on Tuesday to have cats installed so you know I'm not kidding. So again, unless you want something that's going to ruin your hearing and asphyxiate you with exhaust fumes, then I don't recommend an off road system for the street.
On the subject of gears, I put 4.10's in my GT and would never consider 3.73 for a standard shift. If you have an aotumatic then that's another story. If anything I've considered trying 4.30's. but with gas prices being what they are I don't think I really want to do that. Forget about what your friends are saying and start listening to people that actually have and know about the mods you're considering.
On the subject of gears, I put 4.10's in my GT and would never consider 3.73 for a standard shift. If you have an aotumatic then that's another story. If anything I've considered trying 4.30's. but with gas prices being what they are I don't think I really want to do that. Forget about what your friends are saying and start listening to people that actually have and know about the mods you're considering.
08-26-2006, 07:29 PM
#26
RE: which longtubes ?
i put my dynatech long tube and mmr cai in at the same time with a sct canned tune and pulled a 293hp and 301tq then i got it dyno tuned and came out with 300hp and 315tq.. just giving u some numbers.. im very pleased with my longtube but my cai doesnt fit as good as i would like it to. i aslo pulle 287 hp and 290tq with out the tune but fuel air ratio was a little lean..
08-26-2006, 08:04 PM
#27
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 118
RE: which longtubes ?
Ok, I understand how someone who just spent alot of money on their LTHs would like to think that they are giving them alot of HP. But they are not. It is ok to make a mistake and buy a mod that you hoped would make you alot of power, I have done it plenty of times before myself, but are here to learn and educate these guys about what is real, so they can make informed decisions about how people mod their cars going foreward.
The key with headers is that they are tuned to scavenge the most amount of spent exhaust gas from the heads by selecting the proper pipe and length. The key with equal lengths is to have the pressure waves meet at the collector at different times to allow them to pull the exhaust from the next exhaust valve that opens by creating a low pressure area in the collector. In order to take advantage of this, you must address the timing of the cams to really maximize the benefit of a long tube headder system. That is why when MM&FF tested a full system with long tubes and removing the cats completely only got 14HP. If you look at the physics of engine design, there is simply no way that we are seeing 3-5HP from shorties and 20-30 from Long Tubes. The only difference between them is the length of the primary pipe. There is no way that doubling the length of the primary tube (from a short to long tube) results in 6 times the HP.
If you did some cam and head work first, you may see some significant improvements, probably that 20-30HP that they are talking about. Either way though, you will get some great sound, just don't be dissapointed in the power you get from them.
Here are a couple of links to some forums here where people do not have their head in clouds when it comes to mods.
https://mustangforums.com/m_1848216/tm.htm
https://mustangforums.com/m_1622010/tm.htm
https://mustangforums.com/m_1587664/tm.htm
https://mustangforums.com/m_1838326/...tm.htm#1870054
Thanks,
Skrappy
The key with headers is that they are tuned to scavenge the most amount of spent exhaust gas from the heads by selecting the proper pipe and length. The key with equal lengths is to have the pressure waves meet at the collector at different times to allow them to pull the exhaust from the next exhaust valve that opens by creating a low pressure area in the collector. In order to take advantage of this, you must address the timing of the cams to really maximize the benefit of a long tube headder system. That is why when MM&FF tested a full system with long tubes and removing the cats completely only got 14HP. If you look at the physics of engine design, there is simply no way that we are seeing 3-5HP from shorties and 20-30 from Long Tubes. The only difference between them is the length of the primary pipe. There is no way that doubling the length of the primary tube (from a short to long tube) results in 6 times the HP.
If you did some cam and head work first, you may see some significant improvements, probably that 20-30HP that they are talking about. Either way though, you will get some great sound, just don't be dissapointed in the power you get from them.
Here are a couple of links to some forums here where people do not have their head in clouds when it comes to mods.
https://mustangforums.com/m_1848216/tm.htm
https://mustangforums.com/m_1622010/tm.htm
https://mustangforums.com/m_1587664/tm.htm
https://mustangforums.com/m_1838326/...tm.htm#1870054
Thanks,
Skrappy
08-26-2006, 08:37 PM
#28
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,881
RE: which longtubes ?
Well consdering that Al is one of the most knowledgable people here, Im pretty sure he knows what the hell hes talking about https://mustangforums.com/m_1737964/tm.htm
08-26-2006, 09:54 PM
#29
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 692
RE: which longtubes ?
Well, I had my car dynotuned a few months ago so I have those graphs and values. After the cats are added onto my X pipe with long tube set up this coming Tuesday, I'm going to have my car retuned at the same facility by the same tuner. The only other changes (aside from long tubes and X pipe) in the drive train I've made since the original tune is 4.10 gears and Prothane motor mounts have been added. I'll have actual values to show the difference before and after the addition of long tubes and catted X pipe.
As a scientist I'm not going to fudge anything and will tell it like it is. If there's a minimal gain I'll be the first to admit it. Bare in mind though, that even if there's not a huge gain now, put in a power adder and I'm sure there will be a huge difference. It only makes sense that if you're going to drastically improve the intake and combustion efficiency then the exhaust system should follow accordingly. Right now I've taken the exhaust step first planning on the addition of forced induction later on.
The results from Kenne Bell don't specify whether they're talking about ALL headers or just short systems or whatever. Blanket statements like that are garbage as far as I'm concerned no matter what the source.
I'll post results when I have them available and let the chips fall where they may.
As a scientist I'm not going to fudge anything and will tell it like it is. If there's a minimal gain I'll be the first to admit it. Bare in mind though, that even if there's not a huge gain now, put in a power adder and I'm sure there will be a huge difference. It only makes sense that if you're going to drastically improve the intake and combustion efficiency then the exhaust system should follow accordingly. Right now I've taken the exhaust step first planning on the addition of forced induction later on.
The results from Kenne Bell don't specify whether they're talking about ALL headers or just short systems or whatever. Blanket statements like that are garbage as far as I'm concerned no matter what the source.
I'll post results when I have them available and let the chips fall where they may.
08-26-2006, 10:55 PM
#30
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 118
RE: which longtubes ?
If you read Al's post he says that 25HP of his total of 39HP came from his CAI and Tune. It is widely known that a good CAI and tune is good for 25-30HP take that from the 39HP and you are looking at 3HP for the X-pipe and about 6-11HP for the LTHs, not the 20-30HP that you are talking about getting.
The reason I said it is the worst mod for the money on a stock car, or one that only has a CAI/Tune, is because of the dollars per HP cost:
The CAI/Tune: $500.00 and 28HP = $17.86/HP
LTH: $1,500.00 and 8HP = $187.50/HP
Do the math, the LTH's are not worth it until you get alot more air into your engine. Either by supercharging or by some new Cams and Head work. That is why I recommend waiting to get them until you have spent quite a bit of money on the rest of your engine first.
Skrappy
The reason I said it is the worst mod for the money on a stock car, or one that only has a CAI/Tune, is because of the dollars per HP cost:
The CAI/Tune: $500.00 and 28HP = $17.86/HP
LTH: $1,500.00 and 8HP = $187.50/HP
Do the math, the LTH's are not worth it until you get alot more air into your engine. Either by supercharging or by some new Cams and Head work. That is why I recommend waiting to get them until you have spent quite a bit of money on the rest of your engine first.
Skrappy