Legion5

Sam has never driven a Saleen pumpkin mounted Watts Link from what I understand, but has driven lots of watts links before. Sam supports both pumpkin watts links and the specific watts links featured on his website, but the ones on his website are superior because they are adjustable and have almost no downsides compared to the pumpkin variety. Pretty much it's either those or a pumpkin mount and everything else is not so good. Also pumpkin mounts are much weaker as a trade off if you need to consider that for serious racing (most people don't go racing with those though).

Legion5

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodeoFlyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion5

according to sam strano the most racing proven mustang handling person, watts links do nothing for the mustang's handeling on the track because of the way the panhard bad is designed it changes the roll center on a track very little. However on the street a watts link significantly improves handeling because when the roll center changes the tires shift around loosing grip in the process and messing up the handeling too.

The problem is that watts links add lots of unsprung weight, unless they are of the diff cover variety. Furthermore continuing his words not mine, watts links are hugely overpriced.

He'd only put them on if you have:

Front sway bar
damper
springs
lower control arms

and only if you're driving on the street, because on the track a car with a watts link preforms the same as a car with an aftermarket pan hard bar and you would have just wasted money.

The watts link also lets you run a stronger rear sway bar without sacrificing ride comfort, which which can increase handeling a very significant 10%!

Everything about this post says that you really don't know what you are talking about.
Grand Am Cup FR500C - panhard bar
Miller Cup FR500S - panhard bar
95% of NASA American Iron Series cars - panhard bar
95% of SCCA American Sedan - panhard bar
should I go on?
95% of guys in this forum - street cars that see occasional track time.
I fail to see what emboldens people to think they need a $1000+ piece that most race cars do just fine without. It's these people that misinform the rest of the uninformed and inexperienced members. I fail to see why it is a constant pissing match, mostly between a bunch of people that don't know what the **** they are talking about.
I HAVE driven 2 S197's with watts links, as well as a Fox. My summary -MEH. Sure, it's a little better, but not worth the cost of a set of tires or 4 sets of brake pads. I also can't afford the penalty due to classing issues. That's my situation. Many others' are similar.
If you want your car to go faster - spend money on YOU. It's ridiculous how many guy show up for HPDE's and get passed by Miatas. It's these same guys that are usually on **** tires - but have a $1300 watts link. Comical.
On paper a watts link is better. In practice - not so much. It's simple but the debate will go on forever.

Paragraph 1 agrees with you
Paragraph 2 is true of the older watts links that were available 2 years ago.
Paragraph 3 is a direct quote from a post on mustangforums
Paragraph 4 again agrees with you and also follow the basic laws of road physics with how suspension works on a non-track, ie a track is smooth but when the road is not the rear shifting around will be MUCH more important to handling. .
Paragraph 5 is backed up by Strano's own wife!

You obviously don't understand the differences between a street car and a track car. You yourself say 5% of racers use watts links, and this is artificially low due to class rules, AND honestly if a panhard bar were to have the same performance on the street as the track it would have to be as wide as a house, and it's not, so the superiority doesn't translate at all in your example using even some of what you said to back that up.

Furthermore Strano disagreed with you just now that it's "barley better". He can't think of a reason not to use it, that's pretty strong to say.

Anyway I race in SCCA F1000, and I'm sponsored, I'm pretty sure I know a little bit.

Legion5

The adjustable watts link in question attaches to the axle tubes, the axle tubes are directly bolted to the differential assembly. Same thing more attatchment points.

Vertical movement is not restricted but ROLL movement will be...



Here's diagram of how roll center restricts the car's roll on an IRS car. Depending on how far the centerpoint is away from the CG will change your roll handling...

Joolander

so what would be considered a "large" difference between CG and RC? also, whats a worst case scenario if its not lined up properly?


and thank you for the diagram, i like diagrams

Norm Peterson

I think V8 front engine RWD car CG heights tend to be about 20" - 22" (there's a paper of some kind dealing with rollover that lists CG heights and other data for a wide variety of vehicles). Camshaft height in pushrod V8 cars has been given as another approximation. The S197 rear RC is close to 12" and the front is probably around 2" - 3" (haven't gotten around to making the measurements to compute the front RC height yet). Those are for unlowered cars on OE-size tires. So CG to vehicle "roll axis" distance is around 14".


Norm

Sam Strano

The debate might go on forever, but there are a few points to consider when tossing around 'who uses what'....

1. Watts are not legal in a number of series, one of them being Nextel Cup.

2. I stated PHB cars can work very well, but they are more limited by the inherent design drawbacks associated with the very nature of a PHB's mouting.

3. The stiffer the car, the less it rolls and pitches the less the PHB moves around. That's great if you run a really stiff car on a really smooth track, but that's not always the case. And what's more I don't like to run the car any stiffer than I have to for good contact patch. Running a car stiffer than you "need" to in order to control you contact patch sacrifices mechanical grip for not reason.

4. A PHB works best when it's level, but without welding something on you can't get a level PHB on a lowered S197. The axle mounting point is a given height off the ground. The body mount is a given height off the ground. Lower the body, the body mount drops, the PHB is now no longer level which effects the movement of they body in relation to the axle.

5. I think most any Watts link is better than a PHB. Personally I prefer the ones that don't mount to the cover for reasons I stated before, and I think we ought to have the option of being able to adjust the RC if you are spending that kind of money.

6. While a Watts link is not cheap, it's also an investment. Cheaper than most really good tires, and a Watts link won't wear out in 10 track days or 15k miles, etc. Comparing this to tires or brakes which are wear items isn't really accurate IMO.

7. Like any setup, the setup and taste matters. Can you have a Watts link car that's worse than a PHB car? Sure you can, if the Watts car isn't setup overall as well. But I don't see how anyone can argue against the a Watts link on any basis other than cost, and being that we aren't talking $2,000 or something, but $650 or so and up it's not really that much cash in the grand scheme of what most of us spend on a car.

ohskigod

FWIW, (A long post from a none too mechanical guy that knows enough what feels right and what doesnt in a car)

I have a Saleen Watts link and Love it, it was amongst the first mods I put on the car. This was about 8-9 months ago.

I bought my 07 GT in August of 07. Its my first Mustang. I always respected Mustangs, and since I am a larger man, I fit in it alot better than a Vette. Also, the Stang was more practical, so it won the battle.

I was impressed with the way it handled from the first time I test drove it. I guess since I was anticipating a train wreck due to the solid axle, I was pleasantly suprised when I actually drove it.

As I drove it after making my purchase, I noticed an "uneasy" feeling whenever I hit road imperfections, like the rear end just wasnt planted or stable. I couldnt put my finger on as to why, but i learned a long time ago to trust my instincts when a vehicle seems to be trying to tell me something. I also noticed this feeling would get particularly worse if I was in a hard turn on an entrance / offramp that hapenned to have road imperfections. Like "holy sh*t" bad in some cases.

I was none to big of a fan of this feeling ruining what was otherwise a great driving experience. As I was looking into solutions I stumbled, almost by accident, upon the Saleen Watts link. I did some searches here and found little to no info, and what info I did find was people telling me it was a waste of money. I did happen to notice that the people that told me it was a waste of money neither owned, nor drove a Stang with any Watts link, much less the Saleen. Also, the level of vitriol against the Watts link by some of the same made their advise suspect in my eyes to a degree.

I found one guy, and for the life of me I cant remember who the hell he was, that said simply "I know exactly what your feeling, and what you dont like...... get the Watts link and dont look back". Being unusually trusting, I took his advise and scheduled an install by JDM (no way in hell i was doing this myself!)

I had people tell me I was wasting my money, but I just had a feeling the Watts link was the answer to my problems. I love it when my insticts point me in the right direction, because when I got that car back, I tried like hell to hit bumps and turns that would replicate that feeling, and I just couldnt. (note, this kit also comes with an upgraded rear sway bar.)

The rear end felt so much more stable, the 1400 looked less like a huge investment and more like something I smacked myself for not doing even earlier. Christ, I figure the cost is the only reason Ford doesn't put these frikken things on from the factory!! Why else wouldnt they ?!?!

I recently added a Saleen suspension kit (shocks, springs and a front sway bar) and this thing doesnt even feel close to stock. its like i bought a new car.

Can I explain in technical detail why the Watts link feels so good?....maybe, but honestly I dont care enough to go that route to convince people. People still look at me like I;m nuts for getting it, and I couldnt care less. The sh*t eating grin plastered on my face when I take a twisty road with all the confidence I can stand is enough for me.

hope this helps either way.........I'll say this though, only trust opinions of people that are either a) very knowlegable suspension guys, or b) people that actually drove a car with a watts link) just my .02

to this day, when I suggest the Watts link as an option, I get people that actually laugh at me when I mention it, like I am suggesting some esoteric device that has no business being on a street car. meh, whatever

Joolander

ohskigod, you sound alot like me,

did you get the saleen watts link or the JDM variety (and is there a difference besides color?)

Sam Strano

Just keep in mind there are the Saleen/JDM style, and then the Fays2/Steeda/EvM styles.

The function is basically the same. The differences are in how they attach to the car, and in that the Fays2 and Steeda's are adjustable for RC height where the others are not. And then there is the costs. A look at a Fays2 vs. a Steeda shows they are functionally very similar, though the Fays2 has more RC height adjustment and does it with one bolt vs. 4 on the Steeda unit. And I think it's pretty clear which is the beefier of the two:

Fays2: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=79&ModelID=5

Steeda: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=79&ModelID=5

Now compare those to the EvM which is a similar style but w/o RC height adjustment: http://www.evolutionmsport.com/evmCa...&products_id=1

And here's the Saleen: http://image.musclemustangfastfords....s_link_kit.jpg

Now, to be fair there is the Lakewood unit which is a Fays2/Steeda style Watts, but far less robust than either, and something I would not run.

Here's the way I see this, plain and simple. If you are going to bother with the cost and time to put a Watts link on... then why not give yourself the ability/opprotunity to adjust your roll center height? It's not like it costs you more money than other options. A Fays2 and an EvM cost about the same thing. A Steeda costs less than a Saleen unit too. Both the Fays and Steeda have adjustable RC height. And frankly for the money and beef, I'll take the Fays2.

And here's something you all might want to consider... From Carroll Smith's "Tune to Win" (a bible for helping with car setup):

"To be effective, the pivot must be attached to the chassis, not to the axle, and the links must be parallel to each other and to the ground at ride height."

He also states (and rightly so) that "....the Panhard Rod should be as long as possible and should be horizontal at ride height." Well it is quite long stock. But the minute you lower the car, it's no longer horizontal and the more you lower the more crooked a PHB becomes. With a Watts that is adjustable you have no issues making sure the arms are parallel with each other and the ground. On the Fays2 you rotate the axle clamps, on the Steeda they give you a slider type adjustment. You can't adjust the others to make the arms level @ ride height if changes vs. what the Watts was designed for.

And let me add a few more things regarding RC height from the late Mr. Smith:

"Rear roll center too low--or front too high
Roll axis too far out of parallel with the mass centroid axis leading to a non-linear generation of chassis roll and lateral load transfer. In this case the tendency will be toward too much front load transfer at the rear which will cause oversteer.

Front roll center too low--or rear too high
Same as above, but in the opposite direction, tending toward corner entry understeer and three wheeled motoring on corner exit."

Basically with a Watts link, or a PHB you can't adjust the RC height on, you are missing a bit tool in tuning the car should you want to or run into a situation you have to.

Look on a nice smooth track with a very stiff car a PHB has very little movement and isn't very upset by imperfections. The shortcomings inherent to a PHB vs. a Watts largely goes away with those two factors. In fact on a softer sprung car that sees more movement, and surfaces that are not nice a smooth a Watts link has greater and great benefits. Basically those that think this is a race only part are missing the mark, and in fact it's got even greater benefits on a street car. Though plenty of race cars use them too because they eliminate funky geometries.

Legion5

^thanks for writing that, this is possibly the most complicated topic regarding a car (suspention geometry that is).

It's so complicated in fact that many very serious race car teams don't even know about it, they're just like "Company A's suspension geometry is better than Company B's" I'm not kidding, I heard that from a Pro Ford Racing team in exactly that context where it was the only way they could describe it, this was 6 years ago though.

Anyway you really seem to be bashing the Saleen setup lately

"it's too weak for the track"
"for the same money you can get an adjustable system"

I remember you saying you preferred a watts link with the least unsprungweight on the axle as the most important feature if you could afford to go that way, now you're blowing that out of the water (Saleen's) with how important adjustability is.

I think that what you've been doing is playing with new gen adjustable watts links and seeing decent results from modifying their settings.

The thing is though that this might be a bit of one of those situations where what's good for the expert isn't ideal for everyone.

Keep in mind that Saleen is a pro race team first and that the Saleen watts link was setup by one of the best American race car drivers. I can't think of anything more ideal situation to have when getting a pre-tuned suspention. Sure you might be able to set it up to where it's much much better for your daily commute, or for speed, or for you, and that's great but as some one like joo who's not an expert it's a bad idea to play with.

That's because this is one of those things, that can turn a car from an aircraft carrier into a cruise missile. I'd rather not be dealing with such complex forces, and take the McWatts Link and be done with it (I'll mention why I think that in a sec). But especially as when this is one that's tuned by Parnelli Joanes with ridiculous effort according to the press briefs it does have a certain reasonability to it (Parnelli kept tuning and retuning it, having it redesigned like 6 times by Saleen's PJ team until they got mad at him and told him to pick a final set up).

Anyway I say this all only because I've talked to no less than 60 people that have adjustable dampers on the Mustang and about 15 of them that have taken me for a drive at my request (I'm in the process of picking my own custom suspension and tires and in the through research phase actually). Almost ALL of the people with adjustable dampers did a unbelievably bad or dangerous job in setting up their dampers and one guy out of those 60 completely destroyed his car because he set it all the way firm and drove on a city road and crashed and hurt his neck.

I kid you not most people that do their own dampers make their car clearly underivable for what they are trying to accomplish and I suspect they'd be better of with non-adjustable dampers.

So, if joe average can't even do something as simple as 1 setting dampers right, he'll probably cause armageddon by messing with suspension geometry, something even again manufacturer's racing teams consider to be dark voodoo.

I don't mean to call you out and I appreciate your follow up posts because they put a lot of top class complex information in a brief piece of text, something that's hard to do.