D-specs v. Konis (again)
03-04-2009, 01:27 PM
#21
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 770
i understand that. still, i find it hard to believe that some sort of opinion could not have been properly formed. they are still the same car, same chassis, same track. it's not a perfect situation, granted, but if konis are supposed to be so much better, it would make sense that some difference/improvement would have been noticeable.
03-04-2009, 02:10 PM
#22
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
i understand that. still, i find it hard to believe that some sort of opinion could not have been properly formed. they are still the same car, same chassis, same track. it's not a perfect situation, granted, but if konis are supposed to be so much better, it would make sense that some difference/improvement would have been noticeable.
We're talking about one car that's setup in basically F-stock trim. Stock springs, bars and r-compound tires. The other has lowering springs, different swaybars, different (wider) wheels and a completely different type of tire (Falken RT-615's as I recall).
You're being a bit off the deep end here. There is a difference between the dampers. I also said that I don't think D-specs are hateful, just not as good (and a big reason is the quality and warranty of them). I won my 2007 National Championship on D-specs. I sell D-specs. I prefer Koni's. Comparing apples and oranges doesn't tell you if your soil is any good. Comparing two cars that have very different parts and assuming you can see through the differences because they are both Mustangs is just insane.
03-04-2009, 02:21 PM
#23
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 770
"What exactly do you want to hear??????"
why should a DD vehicle that sees one or two track weekends per year spend $200 more for konis? i've been on this forum since 2006 and can't honestly think of one person who has said they regretted purchasing the dspecs. so... why $200 more?
"How many have run both that could possibly compare them?"
we haven't, that's why we come here.
"How many have any real experience in tuning cars and have run both?"
we don't, that's why we come here.
"How many sell both?"
we don't, that's why we come here.
"My point here is you are on the internet. You are soliciting opinions from all kinds of folks and frankly you don't know their background, and you're trying to decide what to do based on a bunch of folks you don't know."
right... that's what this forum is all about... isn't it? i can't know everyone. i can presume that when someone, who isn't selling a product, tells me they have a positive experience with said product, even though i don't know the person, that they are likely telling the truth. multiply their testimony times a hundred or more (as is the case with dspecs), and i start to feel real good about my decision.
"I think I've made it quite clear why I prefer Koni's. There are others here that have also switched and are glad they did (they just don't post, and I don't know why because I've gotten more than one positive note about the change from D-specs to Koni).... Aside from my findings."
yes, i think you have made it clear. i'll agree that konis are likely better then dpsecs. i guess i'm just not convinced that konis are worth the increase in price for someone who isn't out there racing every weekend or doesn't plan to race at all!
i don't know why your customers who have upgraded to konis from dspecs haven't gotten on here, either. i think i've seen one such post.
"If you are looking to pick parts based on a blind poll, then I can't tell you anything more that can help. I think it's a bit silly to rely on unknowns when you have known commodities that have run both (most haven't, so how can they compare?)."
i'm not disagreeing on which is better. i think we all agree on that. where we disagree is that you seem to think everyone should spend $200 more.
i've seen your signature, sam, and we are all very impressed. no one can take that away from you. however, it is my impression that you think everyone should pay for the "best" because you don't accept anything less. i can tell you are a no compromises kind of guy. but some of us are happy with the midrange and if a person isn't going to tell a huge difference in their ride to or from work or on their grocery run to wal-mart i just think they should save the $200. especially in this economy!
look at this way. i bought a 720p panasonic plasma tv because i read the opinions of a lot of people on the internet who i didn't know. i noticed a trend though. a trend that says you can't tell the difference between 1080p and 720p plasma tvs 42" and lower. a trend that said that while pioneer has the best plasma tv's, panasonic tv's are nearly as good and you don't have to pay the premium for the difference most people can't discern anyway.
but there are those that have to have the pioneer 1080p because it's the best and they won't accept anything less. and they pay for it. good for them.
but i think i'll take the second best brand, which is nearly as good, and it is a lot less!
why should a DD vehicle that sees one or two track weekends per year spend $200 more for konis? i've been on this forum since 2006 and can't honestly think of one person who has said they regretted purchasing the dspecs. so... why $200 more?
"How many have run both that could possibly compare them?"
we haven't, that's why we come here.
"How many have any real experience in tuning cars and have run both?"
we don't, that's why we come here.
"How many sell both?"
we don't, that's why we come here.
"My point here is you are on the internet. You are soliciting opinions from all kinds of folks and frankly you don't know their background, and you're trying to decide what to do based on a bunch of folks you don't know."
right... that's what this forum is all about... isn't it? i can't know everyone. i can presume that when someone, who isn't selling a product, tells me they have a positive experience with said product, even though i don't know the person, that they are likely telling the truth. multiply their testimony times a hundred or more (as is the case with dspecs), and i start to feel real good about my decision.
"I think I've made it quite clear why I prefer Koni's. There are others here that have also switched and are glad they did (they just don't post, and I don't know why because I've gotten more than one positive note about the change from D-specs to Koni).... Aside from my findings."
yes, i think you have made it clear. i'll agree that konis are likely better then dpsecs. i guess i'm just not convinced that konis are worth the increase in price for someone who isn't out there racing every weekend or doesn't plan to race at all!
i don't know why your customers who have upgraded to konis from dspecs haven't gotten on here, either. i think i've seen one such post.
"If you are looking to pick parts based on a blind poll, then I can't tell you anything more that can help. I think it's a bit silly to rely on unknowns when you have known commodities that have run both (most haven't, so how can they compare?)."
i'm not disagreeing on which is better. i think we all agree on that. where we disagree is that you seem to think everyone should spend $200 more.
i've seen your signature, sam, and we are all very impressed. no one can take that away from you. however, it is my impression that you think everyone should pay for the "best" because you don't accept anything less. i can tell you are a no compromises kind of guy. but some of us are happy with the midrange and if a person isn't going to tell a huge difference in their ride to or from work or on their grocery run to wal-mart i just think they should save the $200. especially in this economy!
look at this way. i bought a 720p panasonic plasma tv because i read the opinions of a lot of people on the internet who i didn't know. i noticed a trend though. a trend that says you can't tell the difference between 1080p and 720p plasma tvs 42" and lower. a trend that said that while pioneer has the best plasma tv's, panasonic tv's are nearly as good and you don't have to pay the premium for the difference most people can't discern anyway.
but there are those that have to have the pioneer 1080p because it's the best and they won't accept anything less. and they pay for it. good for them.
but i think i'll take the second best brand, which is nearly as good, and it is a lot less!
03-04-2009, 02:26 PM
#24
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 770
exactly my point! why would i pay $200 more for something else?!
i love blunt!
i'd wager that if my oranges were growing in florida and my apples were growing in death valley, ca i might be able to look at them and judge which soil might be better... but that is neither here nor there.
as far as the differences in the mustangs. i am willing to wager that if one of those cars in question had the ford oem dampers and the other car had dspecs or konis, yeah, i really do think you could tell that part of the difference in the handling had to do with the dampers! sure, some of it would have to do with the other parts but i bet i could tell which had oem and which had aftermarket!
my car used to have oem dampers. i changed everything at once. i can tell you, for a fact, that there was a vast improvement in handling and that SOME of that has to do with the dampers!
i'd wager that if my oranges were growing in florida and my apples were growing in death valley, ca i might be able to look at them and judge which soil might be better... but that is neither here nor there.
as far as the differences in the mustangs. i am willing to wager that if one of those cars in question had the ford oem dampers and the other car had dspecs or konis, yeah, i really do think you could tell that part of the difference in the handling had to do with the dampers! sure, some of it would have to do with the other parts but i bet i could tell which had oem and which had aftermarket!
my car used to have oem dampers. i changed everything at once. i can tell you, for a fact, that there was a vast improvement in handling and that SOME of that has to do with the dampers!
Last edited by timothyrw; 03-04-2009 at 02:43 PM.
03-04-2009, 02:36 PM
#25
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Germantown, MD
Posts: 226
23rd post. Most of my threads die after 1 response if I'm lucky. Glad to see I've sparked somewhat of a discussion.
"but some of us are happy with the midrange and if a person isn't going to tell a huge difference in their ride to or from work or on their grocery run to wal-mart i just think they should save the $200. especially in this economy!"
I started this thread wondering WHY koni's were better. Sam and jayel were able to offer sources and personal experience that illustarted what koni's do better than d-specs. esp. jayel's link about actually testing the adjustability and consistancy of the shocks. With my mind a little more towards aggressive driving and getting to a track, I wanted the get the product that best served that, and with a little help from the forum i think i have that. But you do have a good point about today's economy!!
"but some of us are happy with the midrange and if a person isn't going to tell a huge difference in their ride to or from work or on their grocery run to wal-mart i just think they should save the $200. especially in this economy!"
I started this thread wondering WHY koni's were better. Sam and jayel were able to offer sources and personal experience that illustarted what koni's do better than d-specs. esp. jayel's link about actually testing the adjustability and consistancy of the shocks. With my mind a little more towards aggressive driving and getting to a track, I wanted the get the product that best served that, and with a little help from the forum i think i have that. But you do have a good point about today's economy!!
03-04-2009, 02:50 PM
#26
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,936
timothyrw, if you haven't been able to find information as to why I feel the Koni's are better, they you aren't reading what I wrote, just skimming.
Here's the deal. You have D-specs. You like them fine, having not experienced the Koni's. Those of us who have run both find the Koni's more to our liking. A search will turn up a whole thread regarding one particular customer's findings along with more of my statements. I think you are looking for a reason to tell yourself you bought something as good as a Koni.
If you are happy with what you have, fine. Arguing about it won't change your mind, or mine. I've tried both. I think if one is going to spend $500+ dollars on dampers, than less than $200 more for something that's better to those that have tried both isn't that big a jump, espeically for something that will be on the car for a long, long time and has such a big effect on the ride and handling both of the car. If you bust a D-spec and it's not covered, you buy another--and now you are at Koni pricing (and you don't have to buy another if you break one because they will cover it). What have you saved then? And that's ignoring the more composed way the Koni's go about their job.
To each his own, I won't convince you because you don't want to see the other side. That's fine, others have clearly gained information that makes them see the difference. Aside from having run both, I have also dyno'ed both too.
Yes, I won on D-specs. But nothing else was available at the time. No Koni's in 2007. I changed, and won again this year.... I prefer the Koni's and beat a car on D-specs (more than a few in fact). And other drivers on Koni's beat others on D-specs in the class where they never had before.
Your argument can be made with any part. If parts store cheap brake pads stop me, why do I want better pads like a set of Hawk? My car has 300hp stock and isnt' slow, why do I want to tune it? You name it you can make the "tell me why" argument. I told you why, if you don't want to see it, or believe it, then I can't convince you no matter what. But I'll try one more time. Koni's are more durable, more composed dampers with a better range of adjustment (as in useful as opposed to just "big").
Here's the deal. You have D-specs. You like them fine, having not experienced the Koni's. Those of us who have run both find the Koni's more to our liking. A search will turn up a whole thread regarding one particular customer's findings along with more of my statements. I think you are looking for a reason to tell yourself you bought something as good as a Koni.
If you are happy with what you have, fine. Arguing about it won't change your mind, or mine. I've tried both. I think if one is going to spend $500+ dollars on dampers, than less than $200 more for something that's better to those that have tried both isn't that big a jump, espeically for something that will be on the car for a long, long time and has such a big effect on the ride and handling both of the car. If you bust a D-spec and it's not covered, you buy another--and now you are at Koni pricing (and you don't have to buy another if you break one because they will cover it). What have you saved then? And that's ignoring the more composed way the Koni's go about their job.
To each his own, I won't convince you because you don't want to see the other side. That's fine, others have clearly gained information that makes them see the difference. Aside from having run both, I have also dyno'ed both too.
Yes, I won on D-specs. But nothing else was available at the time. No Koni's in 2007. I changed, and won again this year.... I prefer the Koni's and beat a car on D-specs (more than a few in fact). And other drivers on Koni's beat others on D-specs in the class where they never had before.
Your argument can be made with any part. If parts store cheap brake pads stop me, why do I want better pads like a set of Hawk? My car has 300hp stock and isnt' slow, why do I want to tune it? You name it you can make the "tell me why" argument. I told you why, if you don't want to see it, or believe it, then I can't convince you no matter what. But I'll try one more time. Koni's are more durable, more composed dampers with a better range of adjustment (as in useful as opposed to just "big").
03-04-2009, 03:09 PM
#27
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 770
that is how we roll in the "handling section". discussions ad nauseum about minutiae where no consensus is ever reached!
off the deep end, sam? this section pushed me off a long time ago! i've learned to embrace it! "geronimo!"
off the deep end, sam? this section pushed me off a long time ago! i've learned to embrace it! "geronimo!"
Last edited by timothyrw; 03-04-2009 at 03:12 PM.
hahahaha
03-04-2009, 03:56 PM
#29
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 770
"timothyrw, if you haven't been able to find information as to why I feel the Koni's are better, they you aren't reading what I wrote, just skimming."
um... sam... i have already said that konis are better then dspecs! you, my friend, are the one that is doing the skimming!
"Here's the deal. You have D-specs. You like them fine, having not experienced the Koni's. Those of us who have run both find the Koni's more to our liking. A search will turn up a whole thread regarding one particular customer's findings along with more of my statements. I think you are looking for a reason to tell yourself you bought something as good as a Koni."
again, i said the konis are better. i'm not trying to say i have something as good konis! my point is that i am fine with saying that i DON'T have something as good as konis and that i and most people here probably DON'T need to have something as good as konis! my point is save the $200!
"If you are happy with what you have, fine. Arguing about it won't change your mind, or mine. I've tried both. I think if one is going to spend $500+ dollars on dampers, than less than $200 more for something that's better to those that have tried both isn't that big a jump, espeically for something that will be on the car for a long, long time and has such a big effect on the ride and handling both of the car. If you bust a D-spec and it's not covered, you buy another--and now you are at Koni pricing (and you don't have to buy another if you break one because they will cover it). What have you saved then? And that's ignoring the more composed way the Koni's go about their job."
i have a friend like you who i will not go shopping with cause he always feels the need to talk me into something nicer. "hey tim, you are already spending $$ on item x, item y is nicer and only a little bit more!"
yeah, but x is all i need! i don't need what y offers! and it's not your money so, sure, it's easy for you to rationalize it!
that is the car salesman line. park the cadillac next to the gremlin! "sir, you are already spending this much, why not spend a little more!"
and then you start arguing the warranty issue? all the guys on here auto-xing and road racing on dspecs, running 1/4 mile races... i've heard of ONE guy who has busted a dspec on here since i joined in 2006, on a pothole, sue the city, it works!
"Yes, I won on D-specs. But nothing else was available at the time. No Koni's in 2007. I changed, and won again this year.... I prefer the Koni's and beat a car on D-specs (more than a few in fact). And other drivers on Koni's beat others on D-specs in the class where they never had before. "
again, arguing that konis are better. not really necessary. i grant that! i'll also wager that you win because you are a better driver! and that you would win even if you had your dspecs (driver mod)! and that there are a lot of guys out there on dspecs beating guys on konis...
"Your argument can be made with any part. If parts store cheap brake pads stop me, why do I want better pads like a set of Hawk? My car has 300hp stock and isnt' slow, why do I want to tune it? You name it you can make the "tell me why" argument."
that's right! when we consumers go out and buy parts we want to know that what we are spending money on will give us some kind of return in performance! and when we compare parts when we see that one is more expensive then the other we want to know, "is it worth it to me?"
"I told you why, if you don't want to see it, or believe it, then I can't convince you no matter what. But I'll try one more time. Koni's are more durable, more composed dampers with a better range of adjustment (as in useful as opposed to just "big")."
durability, composure, and range of adjustment have never been issues with dspecs from what i've seen on this forum. so, no, you still haven't convinced me. sorry!
um... sam... i have already said that konis are better then dspecs! you, my friend, are the one that is doing the skimming!
"Here's the deal. You have D-specs. You like them fine, having not experienced the Koni's. Those of us who have run both find the Koni's more to our liking. A search will turn up a whole thread regarding one particular customer's findings along with more of my statements. I think you are looking for a reason to tell yourself you bought something as good as a Koni."
again, i said the konis are better. i'm not trying to say i have something as good konis! my point is that i am fine with saying that i DON'T have something as good as konis and that i and most people here probably DON'T need to have something as good as konis! my point is save the $200!
"If you are happy with what you have, fine. Arguing about it won't change your mind, or mine. I've tried both. I think if one is going to spend $500+ dollars on dampers, than less than $200 more for something that's better to those that have tried both isn't that big a jump, espeically for something that will be on the car for a long, long time and has such a big effect on the ride and handling both of the car. If you bust a D-spec and it's not covered, you buy another--and now you are at Koni pricing (and you don't have to buy another if you break one because they will cover it). What have you saved then? And that's ignoring the more composed way the Koni's go about their job."
i have a friend like you who i will not go shopping with cause he always feels the need to talk me into something nicer. "hey tim, you are already spending $$ on item x, item y is nicer and only a little bit more!"
yeah, but x is all i need! i don't need what y offers! and it's not your money so, sure, it's easy for you to rationalize it!
that is the car salesman line. park the cadillac next to the gremlin! "sir, you are already spending this much, why not spend a little more!"
and then you start arguing the warranty issue? all the guys on here auto-xing and road racing on dspecs, running 1/4 mile races... i've heard of ONE guy who has busted a dspec on here since i joined in 2006, on a pothole, sue the city, it works!
"Yes, I won on D-specs. But nothing else was available at the time. No Koni's in 2007. I changed, and won again this year.... I prefer the Koni's and beat a car on D-specs (more than a few in fact). And other drivers on Koni's beat others on D-specs in the class where they never had before. "
again, arguing that konis are better. not really necessary. i grant that! i'll also wager that you win because you are a better driver! and that you would win even if you had your dspecs (driver mod)! and that there are a lot of guys out there on dspecs beating guys on konis...
"Your argument can be made with any part. If parts store cheap brake pads stop me, why do I want better pads like a set of Hawk? My car has 300hp stock and isnt' slow, why do I want to tune it? You name it you can make the "tell me why" argument."
that's right! when we consumers go out and buy parts we want to know that what we are spending money on will give us some kind of return in performance! and when we compare parts when we see that one is more expensive then the other we want to know, "is it worth it to me?"
"I told you why, if you don't want to see it, or believe it, then I can't convince you no matter what. But I'll try one more time. Koni's are more durable, more composed dampers with a better range of adjustment (as in useful as opposed to just "big")."
durability, composure, and range of adjustment have never been issues with dspecs from what i've seen on this forum. so, no, you still haven't convinced me. sorry!
03-05-2009, 10:13 AM
#30
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 963
as an independent observer here i will say this. I had a set of dspecs ordered, but after reading this thread i am going to cancel my dspecs order and get the konis.
The reason is simple, i just spent over $1000 to upgrade my suspension. Another $200 even if it just for piece of mind (that i got the best part possible) is well worth it IMO.
The reason is simple, i just spent over $1000 to upgrade my suspension. Another $200 even if it just for piece of mind (that i got the best part possible) is well worth it IMO.