curious
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,042
From: Suwanee, GA
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: THUMPIN455
F1 engines are small because the rules limit them, also they have turbos about twice the size of your head. Ungodly amounts of boost is needed to make the power they make. Put the same amount of forced induction into say a 500ci V8 and you get 1800hp from the 2.0L and 6000+ from the 500ci. More displacement means more power. It really is that simple. There is no way an F1 car will hang with TOP FUEL, or even PRO STOCK in a 1/4 mile. Its just not going to happen, mainly because of the power required and also because its two differnt types of racing.
The whole stock internal thing amuses me. How long do the dyno queen Supra's live running enough boost to make 1000hp? The guys will tell you they last forever, but dont believe everything people tell you.
Just because some kid can spend $10-$20k on a Honda and run where a lightly modded LS1 can run, doesnt mean the smaller engine is better. There are trade offs in engine design. A high winding small displacement multivalve engine is going to be very soggy on the bottom end because it makes all of its power about 4000 rpm. Under that it will be a dog. Making 400hp doesnt take much if you spin the snot out of it, there isnt much torque being made if its power peak is only 400 hp @9000rpm. Sorry but Torque is what moves the car. HP is just torque over time, its a mathematical equasion, nothing more. Torque is how hard the engine is turning at a given RPM. So if you dont have much of it, you need more rpm to move the car. Driving a car that weighs more with a smaller engine (ie mustang vs LS1) means it wont be as fast. Add forced induction and things change, mod anything and it will go. The same level of mods to a larger engine will make more power.
Saying Honda X will outrun ANY muscle car is a much to general comment. Maybe a highly modified CRX vs a stone stock (fill in the blank V8) would be faster, but put the same money into the larger engine that you need with the small one and you will have no problems with the toy car. Also a 4 cyl that weighs 2400lbs isnt going to be appreciably faster than a 2800-3000 lb V8, given the HP difference inherent in the designs. V8 cars can be that light, even older ones. $10k in an older V8 spent intelligently = 650 hp NA or more on pump gas. Tough to make that kinda power with the little engines, and make them live for any length of time.
ORIGINAL: waxyourboard
Having a car with lets say... a 5.0 liter v8 is really not the best perfomance option... look at F1 cars, running 2.4 liter v-8s and 3.0 liter v-10s for hundreds of miles making over 900 horsepower
Huge displacements really arent efficient... the downfalls are just made up with... huge displacement. Take a look at motorcycle engines... they're making almost 180 horsepower out of 1000 cc's. That's 61 cubic inches. Or almost 3 horsepower per cubic inch. Take that, put it against a stock 5.0 L mustang... and we dont even make 1 hp to the cubic inch.
Having a car with lets say... a 5.0 liter v8 is really not the best perfomance option... look at F1 cars, running 2.4 liter v-8s and 3.0 liter v-10s for hundreds of miles making over 900 horsepower
Huge displacements really arent efficient... the downfalls are just made up with... huge displacement. Take a look at motorcycle engines... they're making almost 180 horsepower out of 1000 cc's. That's 61 cubic inches. Or almost 3 horsepower per cubic inch. Take that, put it against a stock 5.0 L mustang... and we dont even make 1 hp to the cubic inch.
The whole stock internal thing amuses me. How long do the dyno queen Supra's live running enough boost to make 1000hp? The guys will tell you they last forever, but dont believe everything people tell you.
Just because some kid can spend $10-$20k on a Honda and run where a lightly modded LS1 can run, doesnt mean the smaller engine is better. There are trade offs in engine design. A high winding small displacement multivalve engine is going to be very soggy on the bottom end because it makes all of its power about 4000 rpm. Under that it will be a dog. Making 400hp doesnt take much if you spin the snot out of it, there isnt much torque being made if its power peak is only 400 hp @9000rpm. Sorry but Torque is what moves the car. HP is just torque over time, its a mathematical equasion, nothing more. Torque is how hard the engine is turning at a given RPM. So if you dont have much of it, you need more rpm to move the car. Driving a car that weighs more with a smaller engine (ie mustang vs LS1) means it wont be as fast. Add forced induction and things change, mod anything and it will go. The same level of mods to a larger engine will make more power.
Saying Honda X will outrun ANY muscle car is a much to general comment. Maybe a highly modified CRX vs a stone stock (fill in the blank V8) would be faster, but put the same money into the larger engine that you need with the small one and you will have no problems with the toy car. Also a 4 cyl that weighs 2400lbs isnt going to be appreciably faster than a 2800-3000 lb V8, given the HP difference inherent in the designs. V8 cars can be that light, even older ones. $10k in an older V8 spent intelligently = 650 hp NA or more on pump gas. Tough to make that kinda power with the little engines, and make them live for any length of time.
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 534
From: Canada
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
Again, guys, it isn't done with stock internals -- not for long. I simply have never seen 1000 RWHP (or even credible 1000 flywheel HP) from any stock internals. First off, the manufacturers are not idiots -- if it was YOUR money would you put 1000 HP internals in a stock engine? You'd be throwing away money on quality and strength customers would never see or need. They are in a competitive business and they aren't going to give anyone that much margin.
No offense, but there is a lot of bull out there. I have personnally seen the following stock engines come apart with mods:
Corvette LS1, come apart (cracked piston, throw rod, cracked block(probably because of the piston)!!) at around 560 RWHP from boost.
Camaro LT4: crank shattered with SC and NOS, had done 450 RWHP on dyno
Firebird LS1: came apart at 515 RWHP with a hard launch
Camaro LS1 (mine) came apart at 600 RPM and about 580 RWHP during a drag - spectacular
Supra 3 liter: bottom end failed at around 560 RWHP with larger turbos cams.
Neon SRT - blew the head gasket with a bit less than 20 lbs of boost and about 380 FWHP
Ford 4.6GT (SOHC): bent at least one rod at around 4000 RPM, 420 RWHP, boost and NOS
these are good cars, all, and not even close.
I really believe that anyone who gets 1000 RWHP out of an engine, or even 750 or more, will have aftermarket (and good) internals. And I think anyone spending the type of money to get that would go ahead and spend the money - it costs only about $3K to get good (Eagle) or $4k to get great (Crwer) internals for a V8.
Again, guys, it isn't done with stock internals -- not for long. I simply have never seen 1000 RWHP (or even credible 1000 flywheel HP) from any stock internals. First off, the manufacturers are not idiots -- if it was YOUR money would you put 1000 HP internals in a stock engine? You'd be throwing away money on quality and strength customers would never see or need. They are in a competitive business and they aren't going to give anyone that much margin.
No offense, but there is a lot of bull out there. I have personnally seen the following stock engines come apart with mods:
Corvette LS1, come apart (cracked piston, throw rod, cracked block(probably because of the piston)!!) at around 560 RWHP from boost.
Camaro LT4: crank shattered with SC and NOS, had done 450 RWHP on dyno
Firebird LS1: came apart at 515 RWHP with a hard launch
Camaro LS1 (mine) came apart at 600 RPM and about 580 RWHP during a drag - spectacular
Supra 3 liter: bottom end failed at around 560 RWHP with larger turbos cams.
Neon SRT - blew the head gasket with a bit less than 20 lbs of boost and about 380 FWHP
Ford 4.6GT (SOHC): bent at least one rod at around 4000 RPM, 420 RWHP, boost and NOS
these are good cars, all, and not even close.
I really believe that anyone who gets 1000 RWHP out of an engine, or even 750 or more, will have aftermarket (and good) internals. And I think anyone spending the type of money to get that would go ahead and spend the money - it costs only about $3K to get good (Eagle) or $4k to get great (Crwer) internals for a V8.
Sure, there're always examples that show a Cobra blowing apart with just a pulley swap, etc, those bad examples happen. On the other hand, there're some "feaks" out there. I've seen a few SRT-4s make over 500 fwhp on stock internals (don't know how long they lived though), but then some split the block right in half with 450 hp.
I've also been told that the actual internals on the Cobra can easily break the 1000hp barrier, provided you have a turbo setup (a Kenne Bell would probably have 200hp parasitic drag if it ever get to 1000 hp). The problem being the pistons' clearences are too tight. With the cylinders bored out a bit, and the block properly de-burred (to lesson stress concentration), the terminator Cobras can safely handle 1000+ hp in a race tune.
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,042
From: Suwanee, GA
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: 66chevyIISS
you probably shift your v6 at 11,000 then since it makes more power with more revs lol.
you probably shift your v6 at 11,000 then since it makes more power with more revs lol.
EXTREME Moderation
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,895
From: BLAM-O
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: Civic4doorsleeper
Umm... I do that all the time[&:] trying to save on gas.. I shift around 2500
ORIGINAL: redass02gt
I can drive on the street and never get over 2200 rpm. try that with a 4 or 6 cylinder.
I can drive on the street and never get over 2200 rpm. try that with a 4 or 6 cylinder.
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 309
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: redmustang83596
the import motors are much more efficient then our domestic motors, i mean 200+ horse out of a 4 cycinder . . .
the import motors are much more efficient then our domestic motors, i mean 200+ horse out of a 4 cycinder . . .
I'll "weigh" in here because this touches a real pet peeve. You can define efficiency in many ways, so if you let HP per liter or per cubic inch be that measure, then you can argue that some imports making 200 HP from 2 liters, are very efficient.
But I wonder - WHY DO YOU CARE?!!! Europeans have a reason to care, nearly every country taxes cars over there based on displacement, not weight or HP, and the taxes are a lot more than over here: that's one reason (gas prices are another) why they have always had smaller displacement engines over there.
To me, what is important about an engine is the ratio of engine POWER to engine WEIGHT. Many of the "efficient" Japanese fours are not so great when looked at this way. Tthe 200 HP, 2-liter, variable cam timing engine I had in a Prelude about ten years ago was not significantly lighter than a 200 HP GM 3.8 literV6 of the time (it was a couple of dozen pounds lighter is all, but the Honda produced only about half the torque).
This is why I particularly love big displacement, pushrod OHV V8s. Four-valve DOHC engines are beatufiul engineering, but they weigh alot for their displacement, and when you look at HP per pound of engine, they aren't that good. Whatever the liabilities of pushrod engines, they have only one cam, sixteen light pushrods, and rockers that weigh no more than the cam followers in the OHC (plus theirs only half as many). the head castings are very light, and the complete engine has a lower center of mass.
Viewed THIS way, American engines really look efficient, and many 100 HP/liter Japanese and Germany engines don't.
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,042
From: Suwanee, GA
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: 66chevyIISS
you probably shift your v6 at 11,000 then since it makes more power with more revs lol.
you probably shift your v6 at 11,000 then since it makes more power with more revs lol.
3rd Gear Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 534
From: Canada
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
To me, what is important about an engine is the ratio of engine POWER to engine WEIGHT. Many of the "efficient" Japanese fours are not so great when looked at this way. Tthe 200 HP, 2-liter, variable cam timing engine I had in a Prelude about ten years ago was not significantly lighter than a 200 HP GM 3.8 literV6 of the time (it was a couple of dozen pounds lighter is all, but the Honda produced only about half the torque).
To me, what is important about an engine is the ratio of engine POWER to engine WEIGHT. Many of the "efficient" Japanese fours are not so great when looked at this way. Tthe 200 HP, 2-liter, variable cam timing engine I had in a Prelude about ten years ago was not significantly lighter than a 200 HP GM 3.8 literV6 of the time (it was a couple of dozen pounds lighter is all, but the Honda produced only about half the torque).
I read an article where a E30 BMW M3 owner decided to build an all out race car. He took out his fancy 4 cyl bavarian beauty and swaped in an LS1, and get this, SAVED 40 lbs over the high tech little revver.
LS1s are also lighter than 2jz supra engines and many other "high tech" engines. Why don't Japan make a real engine? Guess they don't know how to because of their owner customers over the years never wanted one. Nissan is the only one brave enough to build a large displacement V8 for their trucks.
I ♥ Acer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,042
From: Suwanee, GA
RE: curious
ORIGINAL: OICW
So true.
I read an article where a E30 BMW M3 owner decided to build an all out race car. He took out his fancy 4 cyl bavarian beauty and swaped in an LS1, and get this, SAVED 40 lbs over the high tech little revver.
LS1s are also lighter than 2jz supra engines and many other "high tech" engines. Why don't Japan make a real engine? Guess they don't know how to because of their owner customers over the years never wanted one. Nissan is the only one brave enough to build a large displacement V8 for their trucks.
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
To me, what is important about an engine is the ratio of engine POWER to engine WEIGHT. Many of the "efficient" Japanese fours are not so great when looked at this way. Tthe 200 HP, 2-liter, variable cam timing engine I had in a Prelude about ten years ago was not significantly lighter than a 200 HP GM 3.8 literV6 of the time (it was a couple of dozen pounds lighter is all, but the Honda produced only about half the torque).
To me, what is important about an engine is the ratio of engine POWER to engine WEIGHT. Many of the "efficient" Japanese fours are not so great when looked at this way. Tthe 200 HP, 2-liter, variable cam timing engine I had in a Prelude about ten years ago was not significantly lighter than a 200 HP GM 3.8 literV6 of the time (it was a couple of dozen pounds lighter is all, but the Honda produced only about half the torque).
I read an article where a E30 BMW M3 owner decided to build an all out race car. He took out his fancy 4 cyl bavarian beauty and swaped in an LS1, and get this, SAVED 40 lbs over the high tech little revver.
LS1s are also lighter than 2jz supra engines and many other "high tech" engines. Why don't Japan make a real engine? Guess they don't know how to because of their owner customers over the years never wanted one. Nissan is the only one brave enough to build a large displacement V8 for their trucks.
2nd Gear Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 309
RE: curious
Another popular conversion is a Ford 302 into a Miata, and there isn't THAT much weight added despite the doubling of the HP, and some of that weight is due to a much heavier transmission that you need along with the engine.